Alyaarn Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) Hello, this will be my first article, and I thought I'd write it on one of my favorite topics. Anyway, instead of listening to my rhetoric, lets get right down to the information. This "Warp Drive" I speak of, is actually the same theoretical drive speculated on in one of Miguel Alcubierres' papers. In theory, this warp drive bends space to allow for quick travel between two points (tesseract). In theory, this drive could propel spacecraft to over one billion million times the speed of light, but would require 10^64 kg of exotic matter (matter that has negative mass). Because of this, warp drive technology has been ignored... until now. In January of 2013, Howard White discovered that he could reduce the energy requirements to about a metric ton of exotic matter. This was done by oscillating the warp bubble, and slightly changing its shape. As of January, NASA is currently working on building a practical warp drive with the use of an infernometer. All I know about this contraption is that it measures curvature in an area of space. Nonetheless, this is an astonishing discovery and if successful will propel humankind to the stars. Realistically, the only way we can seek to explore the galaxy (or even the Universe) is to utilize some form of travel that is faster than the speed of light. Otherwise, it would take many years to reach the nearest star ( 4.3 ly distance ---> 70,000 years). Refernces: "How NASA might build its very first warp drive." io9. We come from the future.. N.p., n.d. Web. 27 Jan. 2013. <http://io9.com/5963263/how-nasa-will-build-its-very-first-warp-drive>. Edited January 27, 2013 by Alyaarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamBridge Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) I don't know how they would acquire matter capable of repelling Higg's Bosons since they do not carry charge, but the concept makes sense, you are basically just constantly cutting the distance between any two given points, but I still don't know about the relativistic effects, because if something was getting from point "a" to point "b" faster than light, we'd see some kind of like, negative length and negative time dilation, which doesn't make sense, at least for an observer in front of the space craft at point "b". Btw, I thought this concept was thought of many years ago... Edited January 27, 2013 by SamBridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) I don't know how they would acquire matter capable of repelling Higg's Bosons since they do not carry charge, but the concept makes sense, you are basically just constantly cutting the distance between any two given points, but I still don't know about the relativistic effects, because if something was getting from point "a" to point "b" faster than light, we'd see some kind of like, negative length and negative time dilation, which doesn't make sense, at least for an observer in front of the space craft at point "b". Btw, I thought this concept was thought of many years ago... Relativistic effects do not happen inside a "warp bubble". It is true that the amount of energy required was originally thought to be equivalent to Jupiter's mass now, at least in theory, it's just the entire energy output of the US for one year. There are other problems, anything inside the warp bubble would be exposed to a tremendous amount of EM radiation if they went past light speed and there is that little niggling problem with generating negative energy and mass... At slower than light speed such a drive would not expose the crew to unacceptable amounts of EM and it would put the entire solar system within easy reach of humans and the nearest stars with a reasonable transit time... there is a problem with hitting grains of dust at near light speed, a very bad thing... Edited January 27, 2013 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamBridge Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Relativistic effects do not happen inside a "warp bubble". It is true that the amount of energy required was originally thought to be equivalent to Jupiter's mass now, at least in theory, it's just the entire energy output of the US for one year. There are other problems, anything inside the warp bubble would be exposed to a tremendous amount of EM radiation if they went past light speed and there is that little niggling problem with generating negative energy and mass... At slower than light speed such a drive would not expose the crew to unacceptable amounts of EM and it would put the entire solar system within easy reach of humans and the nearest stars with a reasonable transit time... there is a problem with hitting grains of dust at near light speed, a very bad thing... I'm still not seeing how you can magically ignore relativistic effects with the warp bubble. It makes sense in a way because of how it's warped, but it doesn't completely make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Exotic matter is essentially virtual particles that are 'swallowed' by black holes and, once separated from their counterpart ( Hawking radiation ), become real particles. They have the property that although swallowed by the black hole, actually have their mass subtracted from the hole's mass, ie negative mass-energy. It would take an extremely advanced civilization to be able to harvest this exotic matter. This exotic matter would not only enable FTL speeds, but also time machines ( CTLs ). The problem for both is causality violation, ie things happen BEFORE they are caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'm still not seeing how you can magically ignore relativistic effects with the warp bubble. It makes sense in a way because of how it's warped, but it doesn't completely make sense. Space inside the bubble is flat so time runs like it does in any other flat space... This exotic matter would not only enable FTL speeds, but also time machines ( CTLs ). The problem for both is causality violation, ie things happen BEFORE they are caused. There is no causality violation with a warp bubble, You cannot get to someplace and back before you left, this technology does not allow for time travel AFAIK.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamBridge Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) So what about just at the boundary of the bubble? What if there was a piece of the ship that extended past the bubble? Edited January 27, 2013 by SamBridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 So what about just at the boundary of the bubble? What if there was a piece of the ship that extended past the bubble? I'm not sure how to answer that but the premise is that the entire ship would be contained inside the warp bubble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACG52 Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 this technology does not allow for time travel AFAIK.... This technology does not exist, AFAIK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 This technology does not exist, AFAIK. Hypothetical technology... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) Any transfer of information at FTL speeds implies causality violation ( if it were possible ). Think about it Moontanman. As well closed timelike loops would be possible because exotic matter has the property of keeping wormholes open ( if it were possible , as per Kip Thorne. Edited January 29, 2013 by MigL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Any transfer of information at FTL speeds implies causality violation ( if it were possible ). Think about it Moontanman. As well closed timelike loops would be possible because exotic matter has the property of keeping wormholes open ( if it were possible , as per Kip Thorne. I am by no means an expert but from what I've been able to read about the "warp drive" thing it would not violate causality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamBridge Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm not seeing exactly how this warp drive thing doesn't violate relativity in some way. Space is warped by some sort of exotic matter, but you can't travel past the speed of light by falling into a black hole, why is it expected you can do so with much less mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howlingmadpanda Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Since we can't actually Confirm yet that the Higgs Boson exists, we can't repel it and even so we still don't have that technology there is nothing new about this scientist have speculated this for years. Maybe in a few thousand years we may develop the technology to manipulate particle not found in atoms, but until then NASA is just being full of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I'm not seeing exactly how this warp drive thing doesn't violate relativity in some way. Space is warped by some sort of exotic matter, but you can't travel past the speed of light by falling into a black hole, why is it expected you can do so with much less mass? The idea is that space/time can travel at any arbitrary speed. galaxies can speed away from each other faster than light, in a space/time warp bubble a material object can travel faster than light because in relation to the space/time surrounding it it is standing still... or something like that... it sounds sillier the more you repeat it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamBridge Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) The idea is that space/time can travel at any arbitrary speed. galaxies can speed away from each other faster than light, in a space/time warp bubble a material object can travel faster than light because in relation to the space/time surrounding it it is standing still... or something like that... it sounds sillier the more you repeat it... No I understand that space could move as it pleases just fine, what I don't see is why space moving allows matter (and not space) to all of a sudden move past light without breaking laws of relativity. Edited February 5, 2013 by SamBridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 No I understand that space could move as it pleases just fine, what I don't see is why space moving allows matter (and not space) to all of a sudden move past light without breaking laws of relativity. http://www.space.com/17628-warp-drive-possible-interstellar-spaceflight.html Some down sides... http://www.universetoday.com/93882/warp-drives-may-come-with-a-killer-downside/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive Alcubierre metricThe Alcubierre metric defines the warp-drive spacetime. This is a Lorentzian manifold which, if interpreted in the context of general relativity, allows a warp bubble to appear in previously-flat spacetime and move away at effectively-superluminal speed. Inhabitants of the bubble feel no inertial effects. This method of propulsion does not involve objects in motion at speeds faster than light with respect to the contents of the warp bubble; that is, a light beam within the warp bubble would still always move faster than the ship. As objects within the bubble are not moving (locally) faster than light, the mathematical formulation of the Alcubierre metric does not contradict the conventional claims of the laws of relativity (namely, that a slower-than-light object cannot attain speeds greater than that of light), and conventional relativistic effects such as time dilation would not apply as they would with conventional motion at near-light speeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamBridge Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 http://www.space.com/17628-warp-drive-possible-interstellar-spaceflight.html Some down sides... http://www.universetoday.com/93882/warp-drives-may-come-with-a-killer-downside/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive So I guess it seems like it's distorting space to cut the distance between future points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36grit Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36grit Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 This is amazing. It's kiinda like a submarine that heats the water behind it and cools the water in front of it. But I wonder, It would seem to me that the people in the front of the submarine would be a little cooler than the ones in the back. So to travel fourty milliion light years in two weeks, the ones in the front of the vessel might experience the same journey taking a few days less than the ones in the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 This is amazing. It's kiinda like a submarine that heats the water behind it and cools the water in front of it. But I wonder, It would seem to me that the people in the front of the submarine would be a little cooler than the ones in the back. So to travel fourty milliion light years in two weeks, the ones in the front of the vessel might experience the same journey taking a few days less than the ones in the back. More like a bubble of static water around the sub that moves the water outside the bubble around the sub... analogies don't seem to really hold up here... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyaarn Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Relativistic effects do not happen inside a "warp bubble". It is true that the amount of energy required was originally thought to be equivalent to Jupiter's mass now, at least in theory, it's just the entire energy output of the US for one year. There are other problems, anything inside the warp bubble would be exposed to a tremendous amount of EM radiation if they went past light speed and there is that little niggling problem with generating negative energy and mass... At slower than light speed such a drive would not expose the crew to unacceptable amounts of EM and it would put the entire solar system within easy reach of humans and the nearest stars with a reasonable transit time... there is a problem with hitting grains of dust at near light speed, a very bad thing... That is absolutely correct. The amount of hawking radiation emitted from the bubble could destroy anything within, if kept at non-subliminal speeds. I'm not exactly a genius, simply an enthusiast who places science as a favorite subject. With such said, I'm not well informed enough about Quantum physics or relativity to say anything about the matter. I will however, be working on that in the summer; especially with all the schoolwork in the way at present. No I understand that space could move as it pleases just fine, what I don't see is why space moving allows matter (and not space) to all of a sudden move past light without breaking laws of relativity. The idea is that space/time can travel at any arbitrary speed. galaxies can speed away from each other faster than light, in a space/time warp bubble a material object can travel faster than light because in relation to the space/time surrounding it it is standing still... or something like that... it sounds sillier the more you repeat it... Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36grit Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 quick question, if we built a ship this ship and it took off from near earth orbit; would people on earth see it moving away from us at the speed of light, or would it disapear in an instant. and if the ship traveled four million light years away and came back, within a few weeks, would the earth still be here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamBridge Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 quick question, if we built a ship this ship and it took off from near earth orbit; would people on earth see it moving away from us at the speed of light, or would it disapear in an instant. and if the ship traveled four million light years away and came back, within a few weeks, would the earth still be here? If it was moving past the speed of light you would not be able to see it because the light would't be able to catch up to it in order to be reflected off of it back to Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyaarn Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 Also note that the ship is not subject to time dilation, as the space around the ship is expanding and contracting simultaneously. The ship itself does not move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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