Moontanman Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I have often been asked what would it take to make me believe in a God, Gods, or Goddesses and i usually use the flippant answer of make the sun stand still in the sky or move planets around but if you really think about it advanced technology could conceivably do that. Another idea is that if the universe really turns out to be not only life friendly but actually allows for FTL space travel but being life friendly and allowing for FTL space travel is also not proof of the divine. But what if we find out that space travel is easy, FTL is easy, say some unknown zero point type energy allows for it and we find that not only are Earth like planets common but that they are truly Earth like down to the species of plants and animals we see on the Earth or have fossils of on the Earth and humanoid beings most of which are as human as we are dominate all those planets, much like the Star Trek Universe! Now that to me would be, if not proof, then suggestive enough for me to believe there is a divine hand guiding the universe. The Star Trek Universe is a creationist universe!!! What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyman Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 If we live in a artificial universe inside an advanced supercomputer that is simulating our lives, then we would only be computer code in a created world and the likelyhood of Earth duplicates would be rather large. However that don't make the creators more divine than in your other examples. I think it would be very difficult for something to prove its godlike nature without altering our minds and anything powerful enough to fudge with our minds can trick us into whatever it want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akh Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) But what if we find out that space travel is easy, FTL is easy, say some unknown zero point type energy allows for it and we find that not only are Earth like planets common but that they are truly Earth like down to the species of plants and animals we see on the Earth or have fossils of on the Earth and humanoid beings most of which are as human as we are dominate all those planets, much like the Star Trek Universe! Now that to me would be, if not proof, then suggestive enough for me to believe there is a divine hand guiding the universe. The Star Trek Universe is a creationist universe!!! What say you? I would say that there is quite possibly a scientific explanation. I am not sure there would be anything. Maybe if "god" came to me and said I made you and all of this. And then "god" showed me how, then maybe. But at the same time, I would wonder about the marvelous technology behind it. Edited August 28, 2012 by akh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 I was thinking more along the lines of the life on other planets being exactly the same even to the species level, in Star Trek Humans can mate with and have children with many of the other humanoids the DNA is so similar. Plants are so similar that even on a planet never explored medicinal plants can be identified due to being the same species as plants on Earth. If life on other planets was the same as life on earth down to the species level, sycamore trees were sycamore trees and oak trees and pine trees, a very boring prospect IMHO, wouldn't it indicate a common creator for them all? Just a random idea from a late night Star Trek marathon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPanic Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Comparing the beliefs of religious people to Star Trek can come over insulting - because you're saying that religion is "just another story". I agree, but religious people don't. They will read your post, and they will defend their God. And they will say that God exists. Then you will demand proof. Then they ignore your request, because this proof does not exist. Then you ask again. They ignore you again. Then you will report that. Then the mods place a warning, and ultimately have to take more severe action because some religious person is preaching and not responding to questions, because they cannot, because there is no proof. And you know that, I know that, we all know that. Because we've been there before. I only need to link to any random thread in our religion forum. I can pick one blindly, and the discussion would resemble my brief summary. This thread approaches the same old problem from a different angle. To make some stories of really unlikely things to happen in the universe is just equally pointless. All you're saying is: "See, this is how certain I am that god doesn't exist - it would take an actual miracle to convince me". And there you have your answer: A miracle that we can test and verify and test again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Comparing the beliefs of religious people to Star Trek can come over insulting - because you're saying that religion is "just another story". I agree, but religious people don't. They will read your post, and they will defend their God. And they will say that God exists. Then you will demand proof. Then they ignore your request, because this proof does not exist. Then you ask again. They ignore you again. Then you will report that. Then the mods place a warning, and ultimately have to take more severe action because some religious person is preaching and not responding to questions, because they cannot, because there is no proof. And you know that, I know that, we all know that. Because we've been there before. I only need to link to any random thread in our religion forum. I can pick one blindly, and the discussion would resemble my brief summary. This thread approaches the same old problem from a different angle. To make some stories of really unlikely things to happen in the universe is just equally pointless. All you're saying is: "See, this is how certain I am that god doesn't exist - it would take an actual miracle to convince me". And there you have your answer: A miracle that we can test and verify and test again. No that's not what I am saying at all, my fault for the less than accurate title but what I am suggesting is not comparing God to Star Trek, that would be silly. but indeed if it turns out that all planets with life are identical or at least so similar to earth they have the same species of plants and animals to the extent that humans and humanoids from those planets can mate due to their DNA being so similar it would indicate some guiding influence. I just used star trek as an example of what I would show as an example of a intelligently designed universe, or created by a god or gods. I am not trying to replace religion with star trek.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 but indeed if it turns out that all planets with life are identical or at least so similar to earth they have the same species of plants and animals to the extent that humans and humanoids from those planets can mate due to their DNA being so similar it would indicate some guiding influence. I wouldn't necessarily see that as evidence of a deity's guiding influence. That would seem more to me like a natural order that placed restrictions on how life can evolve, even in other parts of the universe. Even if a being could be observed performing some "miraculous" feat we couldn't explain, I'd still have to assume it had a natural explanation. If this being could cause matter to appear, or control weather at will, or move from location to location in the blink of an eye, I'd simply assume the being had a grasp of chemistry that far exceeded our own, or was able to manipulate wind and water using one of the known forces in a way we don't currently understand, or perhaps was able to access one of the higher dimensions in string theory to lend its movement a perspective beyond the three spatial and one temporal dimensions we know. I suppose you could call this being a god, but I don't think we'd still be talking about the omnipotent, omniscient capital G god most religious people believe in. Testable miracles or not, we'd still just be talking about an advanced life form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecoli Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Something like the Christian rapture would be fairly convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Something like the Christian rapture would be fairly convincing. Yeah, that would be pretty convincing but this idea does kind of beg the question of how would you judge a being or group of beings that claimed to be gods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecoli Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 well according to the christian rapture, all the righteous will be taken up to heaven. Even if that's only 10% of the Christian population, lots of people disappearing all at the same time is something you might notice ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 well according to the christian rapture, all the righteous will be taken up to heaven. Even if that's only 10% of the Christian population, lots of people disappearing all at the same time is something you might notice ;-) all the righteous will be taken up to heaven I'm not convinced we would notice... if the true percentage was taken up.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 well according to the christian rapture, all the righteous will be taken up to heaven. Even if that's only 10% of the Christian population, lots of people disappearing all at the same time is something you might notice ;-) How would you know they're not just full of hot air? Although a higher power that could affect gravity would be pretty awesome. Until you ran out of atmosphere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 I have read many books about gods and what they are or like or might be but this book and one trilogy are the best IMHO... http://kencyr.wikia.com/wiki/God_Stalk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaea_trilogy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tripolation Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 This question is posed a lot. What would it take for a being to convince me that it is God? Several things. First, it would have to tell me my inner-most thoughts and desires, and show me every instance where I failed as a Christian/Humanist. It would then have to show me a miracle of some kind. I would deem instantaneous travel to an exploding star, the halt of the exploding star, and the safe return, evidence enough. Yes, that could conceivably be faked by an advanced civilization. The last (and possibly only valid) test would be for this being to grant me his godhood. God could make another being God. I would want a cosmic-level sentience. Omniscience, in a way. The ability to know, beyond any doubt, that this being before me was God. I would want to know why 'evil' existed, why this being felt the need to be so reclusive, etc. So, while an advanced civilization could fake most tests of deism, only the true god could prove, beyond a doubt, that it was God. That would flow from omnipotence. Only God could grant the ability to PROVE something to be 100% true. No Descartian philosophy, no uncertainty. God alone would have that ability. And the whole "well, a really advanced race could trick you into thinking that" argument does not work. I would know that it was the real deal from the actual godhood. I hope that line of thinking makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted August 29, 2012 Author Share Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) This question is posed a lot. What would it take for a being to convince me that it is God? Several things. First, it would have to tell me my inner-most thoughts and desires, and show me every instance where I failed as a Christian/Humanist. Telepathy, all aliens can do that... It would then have to show me a miracle of some kind. I would deem instantaneous travel to an exploding star, the halt of the exploding star, and the safe return, evidence enough. Induced hallucination Yes, that could conceivably be faked by an advanced civilization. The last (and possibly only valid) test would be for this being to grant me his godhood. God could make another being God. I would want a cosmic-level sentience. Omniscience, in a way. The ability to know, beyond any doubt, that this being before me was God. I would want to know why 'evil' existed, why this being felt the need to be so reclusive, etc. That might do it... So, while an advanced civilization could fake most tests of deism, only the true god could prove, beyond a doubt, that it was God. That would flow from omnipotence. Only God could grant the ability to PROVE something to be 100% true. No Descartian philosophy, no uncertainty. God alone would have that ability. And the whole "well, a really advanced race could trick you into thinking that" argument does not work. I would know that it was the real deal from the actual godhood. I hope that line of thinking makes sense. Of course it makes sense Mr Anderson... Actually you have a healthy skepticism, I bet most people would settle for the beings in post #9 Edited August 29, 2012 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LydiaFre Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Generically I would say there is nothing that could prove the existence of a "God" to me since I am not capable of truly comprehending such a force. I am too primitive and my intellect and senses are too limited and easily manipulated to be trusted. But if pressed to answer, I would have to define my terms first. If by god I were to mean a being worthy of my worship I would have to say there is no proof any being could provide to convince me it was my "god". If by god I meant an omnipotent force that was the source of the universe, then creating another universe would be proof enough for me. I was thinking more along the lines of the life on other planets being exactly the same even to the species level, in Star Trek Humans can mate with and have children with many of the other humanoids the DNA is so similar. Plants are so similar that even on a planet never explored medicinal plants can be identified due to being the same species as plants on Earth. If life on other planets was the same as life on earth down to the species level, sycamore trees were sycamore trees and oak trees and pine trees, a very boring prospect IMHO, wouldn't it indicate a common creator for them all? Just a random idea from a late night Star Trek marathon... There is no logical step from "In this universe, carbon based humanoid life evolves most successfully" to "A god created them" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorro Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I have often been asked what would it take to make me believe in a God, Gods, or Goddesses and i usually use the flippant answer of make the sun stand still in the sky or move planets around but if you really think about it advanced technology could conceivably do that. Another idea is that if the universe really turns out to be not only life friendly but actually allows for FTL space travel but being life friendly and allowing for FTL space travel is also not proof of the divine. But what if we find out that space travel is easy, FTL is easy, say some unknown zero point type energy allows for it and we find that not only are Earth like planets common but that they are truly Earth like down to the species of plants and animals we see on the Earth or have fossils of on the Earth and humanoid beings most of which are as human as we are dominate all those planets, much like the Star Trek Universe! Now that to me would be, if not proof, then suggestive enough for me to believe there is a divine hand guiding the universe. The Star Trek Universe is a creationist universe!!! What say you? moon: God doesn't have his hand on the tiller of the universe. He is at rest now and his creations move on adrift. Humans also have free Will to choose among good and evil and we too are adrift. zorro .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 God doesn't have his hand on the tiller of the universe. He is at rest now and his creations move on adrift. There is no evidence to support this assertion. You could equally say that the farts of pink unicorns cause erections in leprechauns. Both assertions rest on precisely the same footing. Humans also have free Will to choose... Again, not terribly likely. You should read up on recent research in neuroscience. The evidence is becoming more and more overwhelming that we do NOT, in fact, have free will... Just the illusion of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Again, not terribly likely. You should read up on recent research in neuroscience. The evidence is becoming more and more overwhelming that we do NOT, in fact, have free will... Just the illusion of it. Ummm.... some support for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 We cover it in some detail over here: http://thescienceforum.org/topic181.html#p1766 If you don't want to explore it through the back and forth exchanges we had at the other forum, there's also a well referenced wiki page that summarizes it fairly simply: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Dilettante Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) There wouldn't be any need for evidence or faith in a god if all a god need to do is use his will to make us believe. Isn't it as simple as that? Cuts straight to the root of the problem. It needn't interfere with our free will any more than trying to disbelieve in your own self-awareness. Imagine a world where everyone believed in a god because it was mentally impossible to disbelievein him? Then try to imagine the same scenario but with the added twist that he dosn't even exist! Edited October 17, 2012 by The Great Dilettante Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorro Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I have conversed "free will" on many other forums. I do not remember you or your positions. God sent Adam and Eve out of His care and support to scaveng in nature for commiting "Original Sin". God tested Adam to choose between good and evil with a free will and. Adam failed. So now we have free will but we die and forrage in nature freed or suffering by separation from god. To contain Satan and pass the Word, God created a seperatre angelic entinity named Holy Ghost to act in God's behalf and to transmitt His Word. zorro Seems to me that you are a wavering Atheist. So What? To each his own. What is FTL? My Marquee is "Everything From Nothing". zorro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 We cover it in some detail over here: http://thescienceforum.org/topic181.html#p1766 If you don't want to explore it through the back and forth exchanges we had at the other forum, there's also a well referenced wiki page that summarizes it fairly simply: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will Great link, interesting to think that each of my key strokes is planned by my brain before i know it. zorro... FTL means Faster Than Light.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorro Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Great link, interesting to think that each of my key strokes is planned by my brain before i know it. zorro... FTL means Faster Than Light.... Thanx moon. ..Zorro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Again, not terribly likely. You should read up on recent research in neuroscience. The evidence is becoming more and more overwhelming that we do NOT, in fact, have free will... Just the illusion of it. I'd be interested in further discussion in a different thread if you're not over consumed by the one that you linked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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