Guns safety in home defence situations

[Moontanman]

Even though rigney dissed me yet again i am going to have to come down on his side in this, I am assuming he is talking about a semi automatic pistol, if so there not being a round in the chamber is just as good as a safety. my last pistol which was my fav had a safety and was configured so a round had to be manually chambered before it could be fired. I considered that a double safety...

 

Much like my shotgun you could drop it out of a window and it wouldn't go off. I sleep far to restlessly to keep a pistol under my pillow to start with but I took rigneys words to mean he kept a round in the chamber as well, not a good thing IMHO but he clarified that he didn't keep a round chambered so my objection to that is satisfied...

 

Oh and calling the police when an intruder is threatening you does about as much good as reciting poetry, by the time they get there the next call is going to be the coroner, if you get to call at all. Recent home invasions here involved cutting the phones lines before entering the house. My alarm system would have already been barking their fool heads off by then but calling is difficult when the line is cut. Yeah i know cell phones, I can't eve find mine in the best of times, under threat i would never find the thing...

 

my last pistol

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_39

Edited July 24, 2012 by Moontanman

[ydoaPs]

Evidently, you are not too well trained in the use of fire arms.

 

 

 

.....says the guy advocating sleeping with a loaded gun under his pillow

[Phi for All]

When I say fully loaded, under the firing pin there is no round and you must squeeze the trigger, revolving to the next chamber which should contan a cartridge. With a round in it, it is prepared for discharge.

Fully loaded means just that, no empty chambers, no "should contan a cartridge". Evidently, you are not too well trained in the use of fire arms.

 

And since you obviously have a double-action revolver and not a semi-auto, why would it be quicker for you to pull the trigger over an empty chamber and then have to pull the trigger again to fire a live round than to just keep it fully loaded but with the safety on? Safety is a very important word when using firearms, rigney.

 

Edit to add: Your description could also mean you have a single-action revolver (which probably doesn't have a positive safety lock), or a double-action that you would pull the hammer back on. Either way, I don't see how keeping the safety off gives you enough of an edge to outweigh the concerns.

 

Last edit: Scratch the single-action hypothesis. If you can pull the trigger to engage the hammer, it's double-action.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Phi for All
additional comment

[Moontanman]

I take back what I said if he has a revolver...

[rigney]

Read your last statement and give me a definition?

Are you saying my relative experience with guns impacts the likelihood an intruder will assail you in your own home? Why would you rely on the fire department if your home caught fire, but place a pistol under your pillow instead of relying on the police to deal with a home invader?

Because while the police and firemen are on the way, I'm face to face with a perp praying, "please don't kill me 'til the police arrive". Sure!

 

I take back what I said if he has a revolver...

"Me Moon", not him.

 

Fully loaded means just that, no empty chambers, no "should contan a cartridge". Evidently, you are not too well trained in the use of fire arms.

 

And since you obviously have a double-action revolver and not a semi-auto, why would it be quicker for you to pull the trigger over an empty chamber and then have to pull the trigger again to fire a live round than to just keep it fully loaded but with the safety on? Safety is a very important word when using firearms, rigney.

 

Edit to add: Your description could also mean you have a single-action revolver (which probably doesn't have a positive safety lock), or a double-action that you would pull the hammer back on. Either way, I don't see how keeping the safety off gives you enough of an edge to outweigh the concerns.

 

Last edit: Scratch the single-action hypothesis. If you can pull the trigger to engage the hammer, it's double-action.

Actually, you're somewhere in the ballpark.

 

.....says the guy advocating sleeping with a loaded gun under his pillow

Ain't gonna do me much good in the bureau drawer with a cable tied through the firing mechanism. Edited July 24, 2012 by rigney

[ydoaPs]

Ain't gonna do me much good in the bureau drawer with a cable tied through the firing mechanism.

 

It would do more good there than in YOUR hands.

[rigney]

I don't think it would require an amendment. "Bearing arms" and "well-regulated" could easily be intended as a requirement for responsible, trained ownership, similar to the what we require for cars. The founding fathers didn't write "have guns", they wrote "bear arms".

The perp. will have both, a car, arms and anything else needed to pull off a job. Someone will sell it to him under the counter or over the fence. Think different? Get real!

 

I don't think it would require an amendment. "Bearing arms" and "well-regulated" could easily be intended as a requirement for responsible, trained ownership, similar to the what we require for cars. The founding fathers didn't write "have guns", they wrote "bear arms".

 

I don't think it would require an amendment. "Bearing arms" and "well-regulated" could easily be intended as a requirement for responsible, trained ownership, similar to the what we require for cars. The founding fathers didn't write "have guns", they wrote "bear arms".

[mooeypoo]

Unless children are involved, the best place for your gun at night is under your pillow, with the safety off and fully loaded. Otherwise, you don't have a gun even if you own a thousand. Yes! Guns and their use should be understood, not reviled as murderous weapons.

 

That is probably the worst idea I've ever heard of. I assume you are joking, especially due to the 'safety off' remark, which is especially ridiculous, and would only show you to be someone who either doesn't understand anything about guns, or should never approach a gun at all.

 

Otherwise, you seem to be supporting my initial statement that all gun owners should really have some sort of basic training on how to properly use, keep and maintain weapons safely.

[rigney]

Fully loaded means just that, no empty chambers, no "should contan a cartridge". Evidently, you are not too well trained in the use of fire arms.

 

And since you obviously have a double-action revolver and not a semi-auto, why would it be quicker for you to pull the trigger over an empty chamber and then have to pull the trigger again to fire a live round than to just keep it fully loaded but with the safety on? Safety is a very important word when using firearms, rigney.

 

Edit to add: Your description could also mean you have a single-action revolver (which probably doesn't have a positive safety lock), or a double-action that you would pull the hammer back on. Either way, I don't see how keeping the safety off gives you enough of an edge to outweigh the concerns.

 

Last edit: Scratch the single-action hypothesis. If you can pull the trigger to engage the hammer, it's double-action.

I suppose my ignorance is that I've never seen a revolver with a safety on it.

[Phi for All]

Actually, you're somewhere in the ballpark.

I know where I am. It's a double-action revolver that's NOT fully loaded, and you have the hammer down on an empty chamber. When you pull the trigger or thumb the hammer back, it goes to a live chamber. Quite different from what you first told us, but consistent with your part time job of goalpost moving.

 

Ain't gonna do me much good in the bureau drawer with a cable tied through the firing mechanism.

Strawmen make great target practice, don't they? AFAICT, the argument was about you keeping the safety off while the gun is loaded but not in your hand.

[Arete]

Read your last statement and give me a definition?

Because while the police and firemen are on the way, I'm face to face with a perp praying, "please don't kill me 'til the police arrive". Sure!

 

A definition of what?

 

But by your own admission, you'd have to wait for the firemen to turn up to put out your house? I'm simply curious as to the double standard and why the prospect of an intruder scares you enough to want to keep a gun under your pillow but the prospect of a house fire doesn't seem to scare you enough to want to keep a fire extinguisher by your beside...

 

I suppose my ignorance is that I've never seen a revolver with a safety on it.

 

Then why specifically state that the safety was off in your post?

Edited July 24, 2012 by Arete

[Phi for All]

I suppose my ignorance is that I've never seen a revolver with a safety on it.

 

Older revolvers don't tend to have them. Newer ones probably do because the manufacturers felt there was a demand for, you know, safety. Too many ruined pillows, I'm guessing.

[rigney]

That is probably the worst idea I've ever heard of. I assume you are joking, especially due to the 'safety off' remark, which is especially ridiculous, and would only show you to be someone who either doesn't understand anything about guns, or should never approach a gun at all.

 

Otherwise, you seem to be supporting my initial statement that all gun owners should really have some sort of basic training on how to properly use, keep and maintain weapons safely.

I have little knowledge in many catergories of expertise, but arms; (guns, knives, explosives and bludgeons), to include baseball bats, are special types of arms familiar to me. And safety! Have you ever seen a revolver with a safety built into it? Edited July 24, 2012 by rigney

[ydoaPs]

Have you ever seen a revolver with a safety built into it?

 

Yes.

 

You have at least two extremely well trained former military marksmen telling you that you are advocating EXTREMELY reckless behaviour. You do not, in fact, seem to understand safety.

[rigney]

 

Older revolvers don't tend to have them. Newer ones probably do because the manufacturers felt there was a demand for, you know, safety. Too many ruined pillows, I'm guessing.

I can't fault a safety been built into such a beautiful weapon other than protecting the ignorant trying to use them.

[Arete]

And safety! Have you ever seen a revolver with a safety built into it?

 

Are you going to let us know why you specifically stated that you left the safety off, if the gun you were referring to did not have one?

 

Unless children are involved, the best place for your gun at night is under your pillow, with the safety off and fully loaded. Otherwise, you don't have a gun even if you own a thousand. Yes! Guns and their use should be understood, not reviled as murderous weapons.

[rigney]

Are you going to let us know why you specifically stated that you left the safety off, if the gun you were referring to did not have one?

I did not mean to equivocte, my explanation was to mean only that there was no cartridge under the hammer. Edited July 24, 2012 by rigney

[ydoaPs]

my explanation was to mean only that there was no cartridge under the hammer.

 

Then you shouldn't have said "fully loaded".

[rigney]

Yes.

 

You have at least two extremely well trained former military marksmen telling you that you are advocating EXTREMELY reckless behaviour. You do not, in fact, seem to understand safety.

And who will make the argument? i'll not argue with military personell with qualified expertise. A discussion, perhaps? Bring them on!

[mooeypoo]

I have little knowledge in many catergories of expertise, but arms; (guns, knives, explosives and bludgeons), to include baseball bats, are special types of arms familiar to me. And safety! Have you ever seen a revolver with a safety built into it?

 

I think you just broke a record in disproving your own claim in 2 sentences.

 

I don't think there's anything I can add to this as a counter claim that would be any better than what you just wrote yourself.

 

~mooey

 

And who will make the argument? i'll not argue with military personell with qualified expertise. A discussion, perhaps? Bring them on!

 

Do 3 years carrying a gun in the military, as a Lieutenant, plus being responsible for 10 soldiers who carry guns themselves, count as experience to you?

 

And I had quite a varied experience. I carried an Uzi, an m-16, an m16-short barrel, and even dabbled with a really nifty M1 (carabine) for a couple of months after the army. I slept with my gun regularly, 24/7, took it *everywhere*, and had to make sure no one steals it from me, because our commanding officers TRIED to as a drill. Multiple times.

 

If any one of my soldiers told me they're not putting their safeties on, or sleep with their guns loaded, they'd be in serious trouble. And if they sleep with their gun loaded AND without the safety on, they'd be in military jail. I had such case in bootcamp, in fact.

 

And you would be surprised how quickly one can wake up, grab for his or her unloaded gun, load it, cock it, unhatch the safety, aim and shoot as needed. And we slept with our guns, because there was a chance someone goes into our tents and steal them.

 

If you know what you're doing, you can do a lot safely. Some people don't find this surprising.

 

One can be safe AND smart; those two qualities are not mutually exclusive.

 

 

~mooey

[Moontanman]

It's rather inconvenient to keep a fire hydrant under the pillow. Or so I'm told.

 

 

The Cap'n is right and the idea of a fire and an intruder being similar is a totally false analogy. I have fire detectors in my house, they squall quite loudly if smoke hits them at all. Since a fire is not intentionally trying to get me simply leaving the house is sufficient to protect my life and the lives of my loved ones.

 

An intruder will not ignore you and go about his business if I simply leave, he certainly will not let me call the police. I have to figure that anyone aggressive enough to break in my house is willing to do me bodily harm, he gets one warning to drop to the floor before I help him drop to the floor.

 

On the other hand keeping a loaded revolver under your pillow is just dangerous, people do weird things in their sleep, I couldn't justify the keeping of a loaded revolver under my pillow, they are just too easy to shoot accidentally...

 

For me my dogs are a big part of the equation, no one is going to get by them with out them raising hell at least equal to the fire alarm and probably doing their best to stop him as well...

[rigney]

Then you shouldn't have said "fully loaded".

And why not? Someone wanting to "cap" your ass may have only one round to use and that to him is considered fully loaded. With a five or six shot piece, I always managed to leave the chamber under the hammer empty.

 

.....says the guy advocating sleeping with a loaded gun under his pillow

Well, you can take a 'WAG'.

 

I know where I am. It's a double-action revolver that's NOT fully loaded, and you have the hammer down on an empty chamber. When you pull the trigger or thumb the hammer back, it goes to a live chamber. Quite different from what you first told us, but consistent with your part time job of goalpost moving.

 

 

Strawmen make great target practice, don't they? AFAICT, the argument was about you keeping the safety off while the gun is loaded but not in your hand.

Regardless of how you approach it, isn't BS a great repriebve?

[mooeypoo]

And why not? Someone wanting to "cap" your ass may have only one round to use and that to him is considered fully loaded. With a five or six shot piece, I always managed to leave the chamber under the hammer empty.

Fully loaded suggest that you have loaded the magazine (or chambers) fully. Not partially, fully.

 

Next time, phrase yourself more carefully if you want us to understand your meaning better.

 

That said, I'm still waiting for some answer to my couple of points in the other quote. I actually think this is completely related to why guns kill people; if you use them in such a reckless manner, there's no doubt they'd be a danger.

 

This is quite scary, honestly, and I ain't talking about the gun.

 

~mooey

[rigney]

Fully loaded suggest that you have loaded the magazine (or chambers) fully. Not partially, fully.

 

Next time, phrase yourself more carefully if you want us to understand your meaning better.

 

That said, I'm still waiting for some answer to my couple of points in the other quote. I actually think this is completely related to why guns kill people; if you use them in such a reckless manner, there's no doubt they'd be a danger.

 

This is quite scary, honestly, and I ain't talking about the gun.

 

~mooey

Pardon me Mooey, I wasn't trying to be deceitful and should have explained my position better. Guns of any description are not playthings. And the massacre that took place in that theater a few days back probably couldn't have been stopped had there been twenty armed police officers seated in the building. A nutcase intent on doing what he did, must have done quite a bit of planning to pull off such a scheme. As for me? I detect you are a bit leery of my honesty. Don't worry too much about me. I don't own an arsenal and have only one semi-automatic weapon, which I "do not" keep loaded. Not even an empty clip in the grip. As each of my seven children grew, I wanted them to know and understand weaponry, so I taught them as my Dad had taught me. My three daughters are well trained in the use of weapons. Guns are not shameful things to own Mooey and is really a privalege we received from some pretty wise people years ago. The shame is that some are in the hands of felons and nuts. How can it be stopped? It can't! Even if advocates of banning fire arms eventually win out, perps and nuts will find ways to get them. My advise. Obtain one and become proficient in its use. And if you are a scardy cat like me, i suggest you keep it (somewhat) loaded and with you at night. You may even feel safer if you keep it in the head board. Me, I prefer the comfy feeling of mine under my pillow. Edited July 25, 2012 by rigney

[ParanoiA]

Ditto for me (except for brand). I figure the sound of the pump action alone should be enough to scare off most invaders. If they remain after hearing that sound (pumping one into the chamber), then they're likely in my home with seriously ill intent and a trigger pull becomes much more likely.

 

Note: I am, however, currently trying to figure out how best I will alter this setup once my wife and I have kids.

 

May I make a suggestion? Go to the expense of an actual gun safe, 10 gauge steel, at least 1" diameter bolts on all *four* sides of the door. It will cost a couple grand, but it's worth it.

 

We keep our guns in a real gun safe now. If you remember when I got robbed, someone stole my previous 20 gauge shotgun out of my pretend Wal-mart gun safe and who knows if they used it on someone? I have a responsibility to society to be sure my weapon is secure. If it really was, then it couldn't have been stolen. That's on me. I should have gone to more trouble to be sure that safe was secure for at least the average robbery attempt.

 

We have kids, and they way we dealt with this is the safe stays locked until we go to bed. I dial it open, but I don't open it. At this point, if I need my 12 gauge shotgun with shells designed for home defense, I can easily access my safe without fumbling the combination. Since the inside of the safe serves as home base for my keys, wallet, phone and all that, there is no "forgetting" to lock the safe each morning.

 

This does not remedy the infamous evening time home invasion. But, it's far more likely a child will get their hands on your gun by accident than you being faced with a home invasion so I cannot justify leaving the safe open in the evenings (not to mention of course, it ruins the whole point of having a safe).

 

In the event of a home invasion, we plan on throwing anything and everything out of the windows of our house, as many as we can while screaming our fool heads off. I want my yard to be littered with glass and debris all over the yard in a matter of seconds. With screaming weirdos, broken open windows and commotion like that, I don't think they're going to stay long. They can't really hang out and terrorize people when they're seen and heard from the street.

 

Just my two cents.