zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 6 hours ago, StringJunky said: I notice the FBI are getting flak now. Is it justified or is it just deliberate deflection from the issue by parties who don't want things to change; turning them into the fall guys? It seems to me like 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' and, actually, people are getting shot every day, so how are the FBI expected to see through the noise. As it turns out, Nikolas Cruz came to the attention of the local authorities many times before the shooting. Governor Rick Scott seems to be searching for a scapegoat and is a bit hypocritical IMO. Perhaps it is Rick who should resign as this happened on his watch. 3 hours ago, John Cuthber said: In order to be recognised as addressing the problem you have to support gun controls that would address the problem. And, when we point out that giving up your guns would (at least statistically) save lives , you decide not to give them up... Thanks for tossing that softball John. As I said, it seems "I have to support it in a way that is deemed correct by others, to the extent deemed appropriate by others..." 3 hours ago, dimreepr said: If you gave them up as publically as possible saying your doing this under great duress, you might (even probably) start a movement that leads to others doing the same and if enough do your almost certain to save a life (or even thousands); however long the journey we can only get there if/when someone takes the first step. I'm not actually as much of a celebrity as you seem to think. I rather think that any movement I start would be people coming to my front door asking if they can buy my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Ten oz said: The way other countries have solved it would be a nonstarter in the U.S.. 1 That's exactly what I mean, it's not a paradox despite the numbers and it has been solved, there is no critical point in this debate. 24 minutes ago, zapatos said: I'm not actually as much of a celebrity as you seem to think. I rather think that any movement I start would be people coming to my front door asking if they can buy my guns. You don't need to be, don't just give your guns away, take them to a place that can destroy them, mechanically and film the destruction and explanation then post it on youtube, facebook, snap chat, twitter etc... Edit... And your local journalist that supports gun control. And see what a celebrity you become... Edited February 17, 2018 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, dimreepr said: That's exactly what I mean, it's not a paradox despite the numbers and it has been solved, there is no critical point in this debate. I read this as platitude. There is no reason for me to compromise an inch an advance of even 1/10 an inch of progress. As a nation we have acquiesced too much in the name of meeting the other side half way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ten oz said: I read this as platitude. There is no reason for me to compromise an inch an advance of even 1/10 an inch of progress. As a nation we have acquiesced too much in the name of meeting the other side half way. 3 Well, then you're doomed... Edited February 17, 2018 by dimreepr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Well, then you're doomed... The 17 kids in FL certainly were. Perhaps we should focus more on them and their families than on hunters and responsible gun owners who have not contributed anything useful to the issue for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Ten oz said: The 17 kids in FL certainly were. Perhaps we should focus more on them and their families than on hunters and responsible gun owners who have not contributed anything useful to the issue for decades. You're missing the point, you need the responsible gun owners to own their decisions; how do you think India got rid of the English? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 America also needs to get over itself as to how it views other countries gun laws as excessive and over-reaching. If anything, Canada's gun laws are more relaxed in many ways. For example, those with criminal histories may own non-restricted weapons, so long as their crimes were not gun or violence related. Getting caught with a bag of pot as a teenager or stealing a bag of dog food from work ought not detract from the fact the person is a responsible hunter or skilled marksman. Though functional, antique and ornamental guns may be displayed openly, provided they are not readily loadable by unsecured ammo. Long bows (two handed style) are not considered weapons and may be stored with ammo nearby. That even includes cammed bows, so long as they are not configured as one-handed crossbows. Crossbows are regulated like any other long or hand gun, depending on their operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Ten oz said: You aren't posting about how to solve the problem. Huh. Yet you've also told me "That has been the approach for decades...", indicating you think I am posting how to solve the problem, only I am doing it in a way you disagree with. I feel you are sending me mixed messages. Quote You are posting about the way recommendations by others make you a victim. You are disagreeing with my approach much as I am yours yet I've not resorted to pity posts about being alienated. My first reaction was to tell you to perform a physically impossible sexual act on yourself and leave it at that. But I'll add that I am calling it as I see it. I feel John's first response to me only reinforced my position. But if you prefer to see me as a whimpering victim, do so with my blessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 As i have said, I would and do support reasonable gun control. I see no reason to own an assault rifle, hell I see no reason to own a hand gun. I'd even go as far as no semi auto anything. This is not a dichotomy, it's not any and all guns vs no guns, instead of beating a dead horse lets try to agree on how much gun control is reasonable! I doubt either side of this would ever completely get their way in the US but we are a long way from ordering a gun through the Sears catalog as well... I think I have to right to own a shotgun to protect my house and it's contents. For me everything else is on the table.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Moontanman said: As i have said, I would and do support reasonable gun control. I see no reason to own an assault rifle, hell I see no reason to own a hand gun. I'd even go as far as no semi auto anything. This is not a dichotomy, it's not any and all guns vs no guns, instead of beating a dead horse lets try to agree on how much gun control is reasonable! I doubt either side of this would ever completely get their way in the US but we are a long way from ordering a gun through the Sears catalog as well... I think I have to right to own a shotgun to protect my house and it's contents. For me everything else is on the table.. The problem in part is that there are as many opinions on what level of gun control is appropriate as there are opinions on what God is really like. In addition, the fight for those who want gun control is an uphill battle. Guns are entrenched in the US, with the full and complete backing of the Constitution and the Supreme Court. They will never go away as long as the 2nd Amendment is in place, and I can foresee nothing in our lifetimes that will result in the 2nd Amendment being revoked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, zapatos said: The problem in part is that there are as many opinions on what level of gun control is appropriate as there are opinions on what God is really like. In addition, the fight for those who want gun control is an uphill battle. Guns are entrenched in the US, with the full and complete backing of the Constitution and the Supreme Court. They will never go away as long as the 2nd Amendment is in place, and I can foresee nothing in our lifetimes that will result in the 2nd Amendment being revoked. Only if you refuse to give them up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, zapatos said: Guns are entrenched in the US, with the full and complete backing of the Constitution and the Supreme Court. They will never go away as long as the 2nd Amendment is in place, Yet we already had an assualt rifle ban in place. SCOTUS didn't knock it down Bush let it expire. The 2nd amendment doesn't prevent any of the policy ideas most in here are calling for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 24 minutes ago, zapatos said: Huh. Yet you've also told me "That has been the approach for decades...", indicating you think I am posting how to solve the problem, only I am doing it in a way you disagree with. If your approach has been shown not to work over the decades then it's not "posting how to solve the problem", it's proposing the status quo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 11 hours ago, rangerx said: Check out our gun laws here. It's neither long, nor complicated, but it does well to protect us from ourselves. Check it out, if you have the time, I'm curious to what you might think is unworkable in your country. It looks to me as if just about all Canadian gun laws could potentially be implemented in the US. Our Constitution says we can have guns, but is mostly quiet after that. As long as the argument can be made with enough persuasion, I suspect we could have a system similar to yours. 2 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Yet we already had an assualt rifle ban in place. SCOTUS didn't knock it down Bush let it expire. The 2nd amendment doesn't prevent any of the policy ideas most in here are calling for. Agreed. But there are many more opinions on what should be done that aren't mentioned here. Some calling for outright bans. 3 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: If your approach has been shown not to work over the decades then it's not "posting how to solve the problem", it's proposing the status quo. Thank you for your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, zapatos said: The problem in part is that there are as many opinions on what level of gun control is appropriate as there are opinions on what God is really like. In addition, the fight for those who want gun control is an uphill battle. Guns are entrenched in the US, with the full and complete backing of the Constitution and the Supreme Court. They will never go away as long as the 2nd Amendment is in place, and I can foresee nothing in our lifetimes that will result in the 2nd Amendment being revoked. It's not that black and white though, so long as people choose to be paranoid, delusional, frivolous and dangerous with guns. When everyone keeps throwing it out there as a given and little else, it's a smoke screen and the underlying issues are purposefully never dealt with. Dealing with them does not mean disposing or outlawing them, so any willingness to give them up is only a half measure if the remainder of the population are intransigent. Americans need to get over "they want to take our guns" bullshit any time gun control is discussed. It's broadly idiotic and complicit to more death. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 6 hours ago, Raider5678 said: I'm just 15, but I've learned things are very rarely binary. It is binary but it also a utopian scenario. I don’t think there is any chance for people in the US (or anywhere for that matter) to agree to get rid of their guns. Off topic...is my mind playing tricks on me or have you said you were 16 early last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: If your approach has been shown not to work over the decades then it's not "posting how to solve the problem", it's proposing the status quo. I have to ask, you seem to be quite good at pointing out flaws in other peoples ideas. What is the scenario you think should be pursued to achieve reasonable gun control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, zapatos said: It looks to me as if just about all Canadian gun laws could potentially be implemented in the US. Our Constitution says we can have guns, but is mostly quiet after that. As long as the argument can be made with enough persuasion, I suspect we could have a system similar to yours. Agreed. But there are many more opinions on what should be done that aren't mentioned here. Some calling for outright bans. Thank you for your opinion. Well now, zap, my allegiance has changed, you propose to be the martyr and still keep your guns, that's a pious attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Well now, zap, my allegiance has changed, you propose to be the martyr and still keep your guns, that's a pious attitude. Sorry I don't follow. 25 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Only if you refuse to give them up... Do you mean to say me personally? Or only if everyone refuses to give them up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/pious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 I know what pious means. I'm not sure what I said that makes you think I am or want to be a martyr, and especially how I want to be a martyr while keeping my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, zapatos said: I know what pious means. I'm not sure what I said that makes you think I am or want to be a martyr, and especially how I want to be a martyr while keeping my guns. Have you given them up yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, zapatos said: It looks to me as if just about all Canadian gun laws could potentially be implemented in the US. Our Constitution says we can have guns, but is mostly quiet after that. As long as the argument can be made with enough persuasion, I suspect we could have a system similar to yours. Agreed. But there are many more opinions on what should be done that aren't mentioned here. Some calling for outright bans. Thank you for your opinion. An outright ban will NEVER happen and is only expressed by the minority of advocates, yet it's the excuse of choice by the gun lobby to never discuss any gun control measure, broadly by default not just the minority. It's also an affront to those gun advocates who want to be reasonable in the discussion too and those people need to admonish, not tolerate it. Loudly, broadly. I have no objection to admonishing total bans. With that kind of intransigence sewn into America's fabric, "persuasion" is just a pipe dream. When extremism rules the day, you've lost, irrespective of which side invoked it. What is it about Americans being freaked out about things that affect them the least, yet silent on things that affect them the most? Bad education, hyper-partisan politics and fucked up priorities, is what. Edited February 17, 2018 by rangerx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Have you given them up yet? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, zapatos said: No. Ah well, I guess, pious means different things to different people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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