Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) hypervalent_iodine, ! Moderator Note Thomas Kelly, Once again I remind you that we don't allow people to go around posting advertisements for their own threads. Stay on topic when posting and make any links relevant to the discussion / your post and nothing else. I've removed your post (as well as the reply to it) as it serves absolutely no purpose to this thread and you've already covered it elsewhere. Will you give me your opinion about part of post 968 that John Cuthber posted ? You may read it below. The fact remains that there is actual evidence otherwise. Plenty has been cited here in this thread.The existence of evil, the contradictions in the bible, and so on all show that the "consensus" view is deeply flawed. Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypervalent_iodine Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I am not participating in this thread as a member, but in my capacity as staff. So to put it bluntly...no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) hypervalent_iodine, I am not participating in this thread as a member, but in my capacity as staff. So to put it bluntly...no. I had similar thoughts to that answer. The existence of evil and the contradictions in the bible as John Cuthber spoke of in this topic don't prove God doesn't exist or that he is evil or Christianity is illogical and now there is evidence which may never disprove that. Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 The existence of evil and the contradictions in the bible as John Cuthber spoke of in this topic don't prove God doesn't exist or that he is evil or Christianity is illogical and now there is evidence which may never disprove that. The burden of proof is to prove that god does exist if it's to be considered as any kind of theory as the cause of anything. As a side note, we're not blind so you don't need to upsize your text. If you're blind or vision impaired use ctrl + to increase the font in your browser for your own ease of viewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) doG, The burden of proof is to prove that god does exist if it's to be considered as any kind of theory as the cause of anything. I showed in my post in this topic there may be evidence to prove that the existence of evil and contradictions in the bible do not show God does not exist, He is evil or that Christianity is illogical. Can you prove that the existence of evil and contradictions in the bible show God does not exist ? If you want me to present my evidence about the contradictions in the bible, I have done it partly in this forum, if you want the rest, ask a moderator to judge if the topic I may start may be believed to be preaching or not how they want the discussion done. If you or I fail to prove things, the existence of God may be in the same doubt. If I prove what may be read above you may doubt whatever you think and people may doubt of the topic claim People who believe in God are broken. As a side note, we're not blind so you don't need to upsize your text. If you're blind or vision impaired use ctrl + to increase the font in your browser for your own ease of viewing. Look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ? I'm not convinced people know lettering in the forum may be too small and I'm not convinced you know how to use your eyes and I may explain why sometime. Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed -3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Thomas, if you had spent more time reading the forum you would know that the issues you are talking about had been sorted out already. There really are contradictions in the Christian Faith. Also, using bigger text makes it look like you are trying to compensate for something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) John Cuthber, Thomas, if you had spent more time reading the forum you would know that the issues you are talking about had been sorted out already. Is everyone convinced People who believe in God are broken ? Has anyone proven God does not exist ? Have they put it in a peer-review journal ? Has anyone proven contradictions in the Bible show God does not exist and Christianity is illogical ? There really are contradictions in the Christian Faith. Have you looked at the evidence of explanation about contradictions in the bible I posted in this forum, if so can you disprove it ? Also, using bigger text makes it look like you are trying to compensate for something. Like I said to doG in a post in this topic before, look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ? Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 ! Moderator Note Thomas - as numerous members have already mentioned your choice of extra large and varying fonts is very uneasy on the eye. Could you possibly use the standard font and size and allow your words and argument to grab our members attention rather than an annoying choice of font. BTW using an extra large outsized font for the express intention of "advertising" may well come under rule 2.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I showed in my post in this topic there may be evidence to prove that the existence of evil and contradictions in the bible do not show God does not exist, He is evil or that Christianity is illogical. Can you prove that the existence of evil and contradictions in the bible show God does not exist ? If you want me to present my evidence about the contradictions in the bible, I have done it partly in this forum, if you want the rest, ask a moderator to judge if the topic I may start may be believed to be preaching or not how they want the discussion done..... Sorry, the bible you speak of is not evidence of anything. It is a collection of books of hearsay. You'll need to look elsewhere for evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Like I said to doG in a post in this topic before, look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ? Do you use them because your intellect is impaired? Just asking for clarification. Nothing adverse implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polednice Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Surely illogicality necessarily follows from contradiction. If not, you're adopting a self-serving framework of logic to make the hypothesis untouchable. Furthermore, the fact that the Bible is self-evidently the product of an uninformed, illiterate agricultural society does not disprove the existence of a prime intelligence, but it does mean that the Christian deity is as useless as Zeus. In discussions such as these, you must first define "God" - you absolutely may not equate "necessary first intelligence" with "the Christian deity", and if you wish to discuss the latter, you must give reason to think that the Christian deity is any more likely than the thousands of other gods man has believed in throughout history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 John Cuthber, Is everyone convinced People who believe in God are broken ? No, obviously not everyone, but I do... I think it's self evident, few if any people would believe anything with the same lack of skepticism they use when believing religion. Has anyone proven God does not exist ? Have they put it in a peer-review journal ? That's not the way science works, you make a positive assertion that god exists, then you have to provide evidence of that. Proving that a god or gods do not exist is like proving leprechauns do not exist. For leprechauns to be taken seriously you must show they do exist, proving they do not exist is not possible. Has anyone proven contradictions in the Bible show God does not exist and Christianity is illogical ? Again see the above, but yes if you had bothered to look around the site you would have see evidence to support that god is illogical and cannot exist as described in the bible. Have you looked at the evidence of explanation about contradictions in the bible I posted in this forum, if so can you disprove it ? I looked, it made for a very poor argument. I am sure you will find this much to your own surprise but many people around here are very well versed in religious texts including your Holy Bible and the arguments used by apologists to justify those texts... Small instances like the ones you point out are insignificant when compared to things like Noah's flood, genesis, rape, murder, genocide, child rape, slavery, sexual slavery, killing of children, the bible is full of this stuff. If you use the bible as evidence of god then god is a psychopathic monster... Like I said to doG in a post in this topic before, look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ? No they use them to attract peoples attention, something not necessary when posting in threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) doG, Sorry, the bible you speak of is not evidence of anything. Is the bible a thing ? It is a collection of books of hearsay. You'll need to look elsewhere for evidence. I am here with evidence, part of it is in this forum like I may have posted to you before. Can you show the evidence about the Old Testament being worded to test false like I may have asked you before in a post ? And where's your answer to my question about the comparison of your complaint of the lettering of my posts before to the large lettering in this forum ? __________________________________________________________________________________________ Ophiolite, Do you use them because your intellect is impaired? Just asking for clarification. Nothing adverse implied. Do you believe intellect is ever impaired, if so how ? Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Is the bible a thing ? Yes, it's a story book full of fables. You should take a look at it some time. I am here with evidence, part of it is in this forum like I may have posted to you before. Can you show the evidence about the Old Testament being worded to test false like I may have asked you before in a post ? It's no ones task here to disprove your claims, it is your to support them. Your claims are meaningless without support. And where's your answer to my question about the comparison of your complaint of the lettering of my posts before to the large lettering in this forum ? Why respond to someones intent to annoy others? Several people brought it up and you simply ignored them and continued doing it anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Like I said to doG in a post in this topic before, look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ? The advertisers you reference pay a fee to the forum owners. All other forms of advertising, including the admitted global use of large fonts specifically for the purpose of garnering attention, are prohibited by section 2.7 of the forum rules you agreed to when you joined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Surely illogicality necessarily follows from contradiction. If not, you're adopting a self-serving framework of logic to make the hypothesis untouchable. Furthermore, the fact that the Bible is self-evidently the product of an uninformed, illiterate agricultural society ... Wait, what? Don't you think it is illogical and contradictory to say a book is the product of an illiterate society? Furthermore, how is the bible 'self-evidently' the product of an agricultural society? And so what if it is? Why the implication that there is something negative about an agricultural society? And while I'm at it, can you back up this 'fact'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Like I said to doG in a post in this topic before, look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ? The large text in those cases indicates that the content is noteworthy. That excuse does not apply in the case of your postings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I recommend you start using red font across a yellow background, then change it seemingly randomly from sentence to sentence. That formatting approach is generally always indicative of a message that deserves total attention and focus from intellectuals. You see it in all the best journals on crayon usage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polednice Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Wait, what? Don't you think it is illogical and contradictory to say a book is the product of an illiterate society? That society did not produce a book. It produced a collection of tales which, some decades after the fact, were codified and written down by people who weren't there. Furthermore, how is the bible 'self-evidently' the product of an agricultural society? And so what if it is? Why the implication that there is something negative about an agricultural society? It's self-evident because everything that appears in the Bible is precisely what we would expect of such a society if it were making up myths. It has a disproportionate focus on animals, on competitive agricultural politics and hierarchical social structures, and with pre-medieval morality. There is nothing within the Bible that could not have been a natural product of its time, and though this is not a slam-dunk against the argument that it was divinely inspired, it does mean that no supernatural agent is necessary to account for its contents, and therefore it is on par with the many, many other religious myths that our species has concocted for thousands of years. Edited May 31, 2012 by Polednice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Moontanman, May be one of the moderators will move part of the top half of this post to the forum People who believe in God are broken. If they choose not to that's alright. No, obviously not everyone, but I do... I think it's self evident, few if any people would believe anything with the same lack of skepticism they use when believing religion. What are the signs of a broken person ? Are they all believed to be christians or are other people in more need of things like food and acceptable quality shelter and someone to serve them in taking them away from slavery to pleasure of drugs or alcohol or suffering from excess body weight ? Do you trust anybody ? That's not the way science works, you make a positive assertion that god exists, then you have to provide evidence of that. Proving that a god or gods do not exist is like proving leprechauns do not exist. For leprechauns to be taken seriously you must show they do exist, proving they do not exist is not possible. Is proving that God does not exist not possible ? If you say its possible and it is ever believed by a scientist that they have evidence to prove God does not exist, why may they not want to put it in peer review journal ? If you say it won't ever be possible to prove the existence or non existence of God then a person calling themselves an atheist and scientist is wrong because aren't all things in science claimed to be proven by evidence ? Are not all assertions by definition of certainity if they contain the word not or not ? So if any claim is of certainty why is it claimed some assertions are not acknowledged by parts of the scientific body ? Are assertions like the The White House of Washington which the president of the United States uses is not in Brazil of south America not proven and acknowledged in science, is it doubted by scientists ? Again see the above, but yes if you had bothered to look around the site you would have see evidence to support that god is illogical and cannot exist as described in the bible. So you may be doubtful of God existing because you put "cannot exist as described in the bible" and so you may think you have knowledge of how God exists. I looked, it made for a very poor argument. I am sure you will find this much to your own surprise but many people around here are very well versed in religious texts including your Holy Bible and the arguments used by apologists to justify those texts... Small instances like the ones you point out are insignificant when compared to things like Noah's flood, genesis, rape, murder, genocide, child rape, slavery, sexual slavery, killing of children, the bible is full of this stuff. If you use the bible as evidence of god then god is a psychopathic monster... May be the test in the bible is if someone knows what is good and what is evil so occurrences of harm or injustice may be true or false and a person may choose. If God cannot exist as described in the bible how may he be both described as just and a injust in the bible ? Is the God of the bible injust and just sometimes ? May be the unjust parts are false. I wasn't surprised to the claim of people being well versed in religious texts, some people may have some knowledge and not have the wisdom. I doubt your claim it made for a very poor argument because you have not used the wording of my evidence to show how its false, I don't know how much you understand of the wording in it. So I doubt you can do that and you won't disprove it. No they use them to attract peoples attention, something not necessary when posting in threads. I didn't ask you the question. It was made for someone else to see what they know and prove their words false. Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Is proving that God does not exist not possible ? It's as possible as proving that Xenu doesn't exist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) People, Evidence. If you want to change background to white in webpage look to towards top right hand corner and click on machine part symbol and make choice. Part of Chapter XXIV.—Why God Permits Evil For if, wishing to fill up the number and measure of His creation, He had been afraid of the wickedness of those who were to be, and like one who could find no other way of remedy and cure, except only this, that He should refrain from His purpose of creating, lest the wickedness of those who were to be should be ascribed to Him; what else would this show but unworthy suffering and unseemly feebleness on the part of the Creator, who should so fear the actings of those who as yet were not, that He refrained from His purposed creation? http://www.ccel.org/...ii.vi.xxiv.html ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ People, Evidence. Part of Chapter XXV.—Evil Beings Turned to Good Account. let us consider this earnestly, that God the Creator of the universe, foreseeing the future differences of His creation, foresaw and provided diverse ranks and different offices to each of His creatures, according to the peculiar movements which were produced from freedom of will; so that while all men are of one substance in respect of the method of creation, there should yet be diversity in ranks and offices, according to the peculiar movements of minds, to be produced from liberty of will. Therefore He foresaw that there would be faults in His creatures; and the method of His justice demanded that punishment should follow faults, for the sake of amendment. It behoved, therefore, that there should be ministers of punishment, and yet that freedom of will should draw them into that order. Moreover, those also must have enemies to conquer, who had undertaken the contests for the heavenly rewards. Thus, therefore, neither are those things destitute of utility which are thought to be evil, since the conquered unwillingly acquire eternal rewards for those by whom they are conquered. http://www.ccel.org/...iii.vi.xxv.html ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ People, Evidence. Early Church Father. Part of. "Chap. XIII.—Of the Advantage and Use of the World and of the Seasons. For if only good things are placed in sight, what need is there of reflection, of understanding, of knowledge, of reason? since, wherever he shall extend his hand, that is befitting and adapted to nature; so that if any one should wish to place a most exquisite dinner before infants, who as yet have no taste, it is plain that each will desire that to which either impulse, or hunger, or even accident, shall attract them; and whatever they shall take, it will be useful and salutary to them. What injury will it therefore be for them always to remain as they are, and always to be infants and unacquainted with affairs? But if you add a mixture either of bitter things, or things useless, or even poisonous, they are plainly deceived through their ignorance of good and evil, unless wisdom is added to them, by which they may have the rejection of evil things and the choice of good things. You see, therefore, that we have greater need of wisdom on account of evils; and unless these things had been proposed to us, we should not be a rational animal." From A Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus. From http://www.ccel.org/...i.iii.xiii.html In that collection of works you may gain more knowledge of divine providence. Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Evidence...... NOPE! Evidence the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: Your interpretations of the bible are not evidence of anything, they are simply your opinion. The bible itself is not evidence of anything either. Edited May 31, 2012 by doG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kelly guessed Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) doG, NOPE! Your interpretations of the bible are not evidence of anything, they are simply your opinion. The bible itself is not evidence of anything either. You've not posted all the definitions. The documents are interpretations of reality from ancient documents claimed to be from before 1000 A.D. Is a testimony not evidence written, typed or oral ? Is the bible a thing ? Are things evidence from the definitions ? Edited May 31, 2012 by Thomas Kelly guessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 doG, You've not posted all the definitions, The documents are interpretations of reality from ancient documents claimed to be from before 1000 A.D. Is a testimony not evidence written, typed or oral ? Is the bible a thing ? Are things evidence from the definitions ? What defintions? Documents from the bible are hearsay stories, not testimony. They are not evidence. I have already posted previously that even the 4 gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not testimony. They are hearsay. Hearsay is not testimony and it is not evidence because it cannot be presumed true and has not been proven true with other evidence. The bible is a collection of story books written over centuries, nothing more. It is not evidence of anything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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