caffeine Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) I should probably try searching with Google more, but I like to ask people questions... Since I noticed that a large number of Schizophrenia & Bi-Polar patients have enlarged Ventricles in the MidBrain area. I'm trying to narrow down on what the affects of this itself has on patients with Schizophrenia etc. Is there any helpful info on this subject ? More specifically, if there is any affect on the neurons Edited February 29, 2012 by caffeine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The cortex contains several billions neurons (gray cells) that "contain" our personalities and abilities to deal with abstract information, which seems involved with thought disorders such as schizophrenia and bi-polar. During fetal growth, these neurons are not created "on site" at the surface of the newly-created white brain cells, but instead, deep within the brain near the ventricles, over time, in various populations, that then migrate in waves outward through the existing brain to the surface and install themselves there. This is the closest I can come to linking mental problems with the ventricles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) The cortex contains several billions neurons (gray cells) that "contain" our personalities and abilities to deal with abstract information, which seems involved with thought disorders such as schizophrenia and bi-polar. During fetal growth, these neurons are not created "on site" at the surface of the newly-created white brain cells, but instead, deep within the brain near the ventricles, over time, in various populations, that then migrate in waves outward through the existing brain to the surface and install themselves there. This is the closest I can come to linking mental problems with the ventricles. Unfortunately I don't have a good understanding of Neuro-biology, so I'm not too clued on what exactly you mean. When gown enough after being a fetus the gray cells are created on site ? Or do you mean as a child grows if not correctly then there are these side effects ? If I'm not mistaken, there is neuro-communication in the Hippocampus and the Thalamus ? Also an area greatly covered by Ventricles. I am wondering once again if there is any affect by the enlarged Ventricles ? Edited March 1, 2012 by caffeine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) The cortex contains several billions neurons (gray cells) that "contain" our personalities and abilities to deal with abstract information, which seems involved with thought disorders such as schizophrenia and bi-polar. During fetal growth, these neurons are not created "on site" at the surface of the newly-created white brain cells, but instead, deep within the brain near the ventricles, over time, in various populations, that then migrate in waves outward through the existing brain to the surface and install themselves there. This is the closest I can come to linking mental problems with the ventricles. You asked for any connection between some mental illnesses and the ventricles of the brain, and this is the only connection I know. The word "cortex" refers to the outer layer of neurons in the brain (also called "gray cells" due to their color). This word comes from the Latin cortex, meaning the bark of a tree, which is why we use it in English to refer to the outermost layer of the brain. The neurons in the cortex perform those functions that distinguish us as individuals — our mental and physical abilities, our personalities, our mental health, our memories, etc. Thus, mental illness is involved with the cortex. The white cells under the cortex basically act as interconnections between various parts of the cortex and between the cortex and the sensory organs and the muscles. One would assume that, as the fetal brain develops, that the gray cells are simply created at the surface of the brain. After all, other body parts are created at their permanent locations. For example, the big toe is created at the end of the foot, not, for example, at mid-thigh, and then it "migrates" down to the end of the foot. However, the gray cells are not created so simply. Instead, the gray cells that will form the cortex of the brain are created deep within the brain near the ventricles. Six populations of gray cells are created, one at a time, with each population numbering about one billion cells. Each population of gray cells migrates, during its own migration period of time, outward through the existing brain (that is, the white cells) until they reach the surface of brain. The surface of the brain emits a chemical "scent" that the gray cells follow, and the gray cells move using pseudopods, just like amoebas do. Each population of gray cells migrates outward through the white cells and then through any populations of gray cells that have already installed themselves on the surface of the brain. After a fixed period of time, the brain turns off the chemical scent, and the migration for that particular population ends. Thus, all told, the cortex (which is intimately involved with mental health/illness) is created near the ventricles, moves outward, and installs itself on the surface of the brain. All this occurs in normal human fetuses within the womb. I don't know of any affect that enlarged ventricles may have on the creation of the populations of cortical neurons. Edited March 1, 2012 by ewmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 the cortex (which is intimately involved with mental health/illness) is created near the ventricles, moves outward, and installs itself on the surface of the brain. All this occurs in normal human fetuses within the womb. I don't know of any affect that enlarged ventricles may have on the creation of the populations of cortical neurons. Possible cause and effect. If this is the link between the two phenomena (enlarged ventricles and schizophrenia/bipolar) I would add that enlarged ventricles probably don't cause cortical cells to be created that lead to these mental illnesses, and that the creation of cortical cells that lead to these mental illnesses probably don't cause enlarged ventricles, but that some other situation causes both enlarged ventricles and cortical cells that lead to these mental illnesses. Elsewhere, I found in Wikipedia that the CSF in the ventricles helps to chemically stabilize the brain. Perhaps enlarged ventricles over-stabilize the brain, resulting in these mental illnesses. However, the schizophrenia website states that "Individuals with schizophrenia ... have a reduced volume of gray matter in the brain ... of up to 25% ... . Patients with the worst brain tissue loss also had the worst symptoms ..." Wikipedia also stated that the CSF provides buoyancy and physical protection. A smaller brain would suffer if it bounced/flexed around in CSF with every movement and turn of the head, but not if the ventricles enlarged to expand the brain to fit more snugly against the skull. This last scenario makes a lot of sense to me. The lack of gray cells causes the schizophrenia/bipolar, and it also causes a smaller brain for which the ventricles enlarge to compensate and create a snug fit to prevent movement and flexion, which would damage the brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 I will try to be more precise... The Ventricles is the very middle of the brain to the midbrain area, not extending further to the spinal cord. Mainly surrounding the Hippocampus / Thalamus etc. in this area the Ventricles are enlarged. I'm not regarding a persons likeliness to develop Schizophrenia however. More to the point in this area without knowing what causes the expansion in the first place, though there must be some affect on that area of the brain because of this. This being a long shot, As a hypothesis... Spatial navigation / routine tasks / memory / ability to stay concentrated / lack of response etc. which are all symptoms of Schizophrenia. More intensely Psychosis having very similar symptoms but there is the disruption on perception of reality. Also Bi-polar sharing similar symptoms of Schizophrenia & Psychosis. All these conditions have, but not in all cases, the enlargement of the Ventricles. The hypothesis being, from a different point of entry to the subject matter, not being a condition of the physical matter of the brain itself, but more so the spacial area that the brain occupies. What if there is something that causes expansion of volume in that localized area. For example, as a container is filled by a liquid, and more liquid was added, the volume content of the container would increase. Therefore an occupied area with an additional substance would increase in mass. A normally tightly knit network (the brain), its mass being affected and expanded (by the anomaly), therefore which then the affect being slightly detached relativity, would cause some loss of communication ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I will try to be more precise... The Ventricles is the very middle of the brain to the midbrain area, not extending further to the spinal cord. Mainly surrounding the Hippocampus / Thalamus etc. in this area the Ventricles are enlarged. I'm not regarding a persons likeliness to develop Schizophrenia however. More to the point in this area without knowing what causes the expansion in the first place, though there must be some affect on that area of the brain because of this. This being a long shot, As a hypothesis... Spatial navigation / routine tasks / memory / ability to stay concentrated / lack of response etc. which are all symptoms of Schizophrenia. More intensely Psychosis having very similar symptoms but there is the disruption on perception of reality. Also Bi-polar sharing similar symptoms of Schizophrenia & Psychosis. All these conditions have, but not in all cases, the enlargement of the Ventricles. The hypothesis being, from a different point of entry to the subject matter, not being a condition of the physical matter of the brain itself, but more so the spacial area that the brain occupies. What if there is something that causes expansion of volume in that localized area. For example, as a container is filled by a liquid, and more liquid was added, the volume content of the container would increase. Therefore an occupied area with an additional substance would increase in mass. A normally tightly knit network (the brain), its mass being affected and expanded (by the anomaly), therefore which then the affect being slightly detached relativity, would cause some loss of communication ? So, it seems you're saying: some cause ↓ enlarged ventricles ↓ detached relativity around ventricles ↓ communication loss around ventricles ↓ schizophrenia Even though there also is a known loss of cortical cells in schizophrenia patients. Whereas, my idea is that: loss of cortical cells ↓ schizophrenia ←→ slack volume inside skull ↓ compensation mechanism ↓ enlarged ventricles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 So, it seems you're saying: some cause ↓ enlarged ventricles ↓ detached relativity around ventricles ↓ communication loss around ventricles ↓ schizophrenia Even though there also is a known loss of cortical cells in schizophrenia patients. Whereas, my idea is that: loss of cortical cells ↓ schizophrenia ←→ slack volume inside skull ↓ compensation mechanism ↓ enlarged ventricles So I guess your saying it's the other way around, the Ventricles are affected last ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure if I've got this right ?... 1st) The Cortical Cells, act as message interpreters from an electrical signal holding the information to a recognizable imagery that the mind can work with, of a specified frequency, mainly the Parietal and Occipital lobes ? The Parietal lobe works with visuospatial information, and also therefore navigation. Although what it has to do with memory I'm not entirely sure, or other disorders not so pinpointed to temporary navigation. 2) Are you focusing on the Hallucination effects of this loss of Cortical activity ? There is also pathological affect of the Anterior Communicating artery, which can cause visual field defects and the frontal lobe. Edited March 2, 2012 by Cap'n Refsmmat fix formatting, I hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) I would think that if the ventricles were the cause of hallucination in schizophrenics that the more likely cause would be disruption of thalamus activity. The hypothalamus also lines the third ventricle so I would assume this would be affected as well. If there was an increased pressure in the ventricles this pressure would really screw with all the signals going through the thalamus, including the signals sent by the eyes. Pressure would also wreak havoc on the hypothalamus and therefore the central control center of the endocrine system. Eye movement deficits could be caused by the same pressure being applied to the mid-brain as this would directly affect eye movement in response to stimuli. At the same time enlarged ventricles would suggest that all of these central components of the brain are somehow reduced. I believe the septal nuclei, the connection between to the hippocampus and the hypothalamus, is also in this region and is believed to affect the onset of schizophrenia. I suppose swelling in the hypothalamus could be a cause of pressure in this region, but this tends to be associated with headaches and blurred vision. "At the same time enlarged ventricles would suggest that all of these central components of the brain are somehow reduced." <=== was meant to be a contrapositive statement . . . Edited March 3, 2012 by Xittenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I would think that if the ventricles were the cause of hallucination in schizophrenics that the more likely cause would be disruption of thalamus activity. The hypothalamus also lines the third ventricle so I would assume this would be affected as well. If there was an increased pressure in the ventricles this pressure would really screw with all the signals going through the thalamus, including the signals sent by the eyes. Pressure would also wreak havoc on the hypothalamus and therefore the central control center of the endocrine system. Eye movement deficits could be caused by the same pressure being applied to the mid-brain as this would directly affect eye movement in response to stimuli. At the same time enlarged ventricles would suggest that all of these central components of the brain are somehow reduced. I believe the septal nuclei, the connection between to the hippocampus and the hypothalamus, is also in this region and is believed to affect the onset of schizophrenia. I suppose swelling in the hypothalamus could be a cause of pressure in this region, but this tends to be associated with headaches and blurred vision. "At the same time enlarged ventricles would suggest that all of these central components of the brain are somehow reduced." <=== was meant to be a contrapositive statement . . . I'm trying not to refer directly to Hallucinations myself, there are a number of things that could cause it. Would the disruption of the Thalamus lead to loss of concentration and periods of time where the persons would be somewhat unaware of ? To me it all describes the disfunction of someone who has symptoms being Schizophrenia. The area occupied by CSF would be more susceptible to larger increase, and the more solid matter if the expansion is not a great amount of pressure would be almost unseeable but still enough to distort the signal of the neurons. I'm unaware of a fluctuation of size however, but at times the symptoms to increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 If the thalamus and hypothalamus are being affected on then yes someone could go into a trance state. The thalamus could distort all sorts of sensory inputs going to the brain causing disorientation and a general lack of awareness. In addition if the hypothalamus was under pressure or diminished--either or--flow of hormones could be reduced and lack of thyrotropin-releasing factor would cascade to see a drop in triiodothyronine T3 and thyroxine T4 in the blood causing a system wide shutdown of metabolic activity, slow breathing etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 So I guess your saying it's the other way around, the Ventricles are affected last ? Yes, I see the ventricles as being affected last. Otherwise there's seems to be two sources of trouble: the enlarged ventricles causing schizophrenia and the loss of cortical cells (also causing schizophrenia). ... If there was an increased pressure in the ventricles ... Based on the laws of hydraulics, wouldn't that pressure exist throughout the inside of the skull, in brain tissue and CSF alike (the ventricles are interconnected, right?). What happens when we sneeze? Isn't that A LOT of pressure? I'm not sure if I've got this right ?... 1st) The Cortical Cells, ... 2) Are you focusing on the Hallucination effects ... I am knowledgeable about the developmental biology of the human brain, which is how I began my posts. My knowledge of the operation of the cortex is limited mostly to the visual field. Even though there is some pre-processing done by other parts of the brain, the bulk of interpreting sensory information is performed by the cortex, along with perceiving abstract information, memory, decision-making, and action-taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Based on the laws of hydraulics, wouldn't that pressure exist throughout the inside of the skull, in brain tissue and CSF alike (the ventricles are interconnected, right?). What happens when we sneeze? Isn't that A LOT of pressure? Firstly I said 'if', and this was mainly because I don't feel this in fact the case . . . . that is all! **pressures caused by hypothalamus are on the pituitary . . . . . *** points back to contrapositive statement and the importance of its existence . .. . --separate posts--- I wanted to concede to the point about a lot of pressure being negligible in terms of an effect, but then what is a concussion but a build up of pressure by fluid in the meninges???? There still isn't a pressure but on this thought, I thought I understood and then I didn't??? Edited March 3, 2012 by Xittenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Yet, some neurons may be more sensitive to pressure than others, and thus malfunction, so I can't dismiss you statements entirely. Consider cortical blindness due to carbon monoxide intoxication. The eyes might be able to follow moving objects, which can be an unconscious feedback loop along the visual pathway not involving the cortex. However, the patient cannot describe what they are seeing, partially or entirely. They might be able to describe an object by its color, motion, location, shape, etc, but not all together to form a complete picture. For example, a patient might be able to describe an object as yellow and moving from right to left, but cannot describe it further. They might be only able to describe the level of ambient light, and nothing else. So, rhetorically, why is the cortex more sensitive to anoxia compared to the retina, optic nerve and other parts of the visual pathway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) I'm getting mixed messages here... Simply and bluntly, is this idea enough to establish a theory to observe ? Personally I don't think the Cortical cells are entirely the reason of other symptoms of Schizophrenia if they mainly relate to visual input and interpretation, but then I'm not knowledgeable to use that as a statement. Is there any easy to read through info on the matter ? Spanning out from the center as if a fall-off of the pressure, so it not necessarily affecting the entire brain. But then again if the whole of the (mainly) center region were under the affect of pressure, I guess there would be a great deal of problems caused by this. I can only guess it must be in phase at a particular frequency that narrows down to being mostly relative to conscious behavior. But I still stand by the point that enlarged Ventricles being a space greatly of oxygen and liquid therefore easily affected by an amount of pressure causing an expansion. Also I don't know anything about density of the various elements of the central region of the brain. Edited March 4, 2012 by caffeine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Read the following two pieces in their entirety and then make your own opinion: http://www.nervous-system-diseases.com/aqueductal-stenosis.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1027258/?page=1 the first describes what the second is discussing as one of many possible causes of schizophrenia. What you are talking about is generally not considered a cause of schizophrenia. Personally I don't think the Cortical cells are entirely the reason of other symptoms of Schizophrenia if they mainly relate to visual input and interpretation, but then I'm not knowledgeable to use that as a statement. Is there any easy to read through info on the matter ? You say this like it was suggested somewhere to be the greater underlying symptom of the disease and I simply do not see where this is coming from! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) Read the following two pieces in their entirety and then make your own opinion: http://www.nervous-s...l-stenosis.html http://www.ncbi.nlm....1027258/?page=1 the first describes what the second is discussing as one of many possible causes of schizophrenia. What you are talking about is generally not considered a cause of schizophrenia. You say this like it was suggested somewhere to be the greater underlying symptom of the disease and I simply do not see where this is coming from! Your not wrong, it is my own opinion ! Which is why I need to read more into the matter. As I said "I'm not knowledgeable to use that as a statement". I am definitely not looking at development of the body as to onset of Schizophrenia, nor am I relating Hallucinations. More to the problems of lack of conscious behavior. What I'm suggesting is not a recognized cause of Schizophrenia, but I feel too strongly that it is important not to disregard that it is legitimate enough for being a theory. Personally I'm the one trying to research other possible causes. If the Ventricles are inflated because of a small amount of pressure thus having some affect on the area of the Hippocampus & Thalamus, what other effects would there be on the rest of that area that are not normal symptoms of Schizophrenia ? Edited March 4, 2012 by caffeine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Blurred vision and headaches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Referring to this ... http://www.nervous-s...l-stenosis.html It mentions it is because of a blockage that there is increase in the Ventricles, and a symptom being a headache. Unless I'm not explaining myself properly, I don't think what I am suggesting is the same. The expansion in the area of the Ventricles causing them to enlarge does not mean a blockage, more the other way around and would therefore increase the flow not decrease it. Outward pressure not inward. This causing loss of relativity, so all connections are not tight / together. Would cause a certain amount of, as such pardon my metaphor, spatial drift. Even affecting the physical integrity of cells. I almost any case with someone having a Tumor, there are usually many free radicles already in the body thus causing nausea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xittenn Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 There are two forms of hydrophilization--I should have probably linked this page--commuting(visible obstruction in imaging) and non-commuting(non-visual obstruction in imaging). In either case the pressure within the ventricles increases as a cause of increased hydrodynamic pressure, not as a cause of blockage which if I am not mistaken is exactly what you have been discussing. I don't think I can add any more to this thread so I will have to leave it to others or yourself to work it through . . . have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffeine Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks for the help ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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