questionposter Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) So virtual particles are those force carriers that don't completely exist when traveling undetected, and then by detecting them, the consequences of detecting them cause measurement and real effects, but how does that actually work geometrically? Is there actually a single interaction point between a virtual particle and something it interacts with? What about when they interact with each other? Can they interfere with themselves and each other just as real particles do? Edited October 23, 2011 by questionposter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Ok, well, do we even know really anything about virtual particles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathematic Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Ok, well, do we even know really anything about virtual particles? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle Start with the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 http://en.wikipedia....irtual_particle Start with the above. So does the reason a magnetic field from a bar magnetic look the way it does with having those specific lines because of the wave-characteristics of virtual particles? Like virtual particles sort of appear less in the spaces between those lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathematic Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 The magnetic field between magnetic dipoles. It is caused by the exchange of virtual photons. In symmetric 3-dimensional space this exchange results in the inverse square law for magnetic force. Since the photon has no mass, the magnetic potential has an infinite range. From the cited article. What do you mean by space between the lines? The lines form a continuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 The magnetic field between magnetic dipoles. It is caused by the exchange of virtual photons. In symmetric 3-dimensional space this exchange results in the inverse square law for magnetic force. Since the photon has no mass, the magnetic potential has an infinite range. From the cited article. What do you mean by space between the lines? The lines form a continuum. So I kind of get that particles have spin, but since electrons don't have classical spin as that would cause them to accelerate classically, how does the magnetic field actually move? And still, why are there those specific lines? I mean the direction makes some sense, but why quantized looking lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Quantized lines are merely a representation of the field -- the actual field does not come in lines. We simply represent a magnetic field as lines when drawing it, with denser lines representing a stronger field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Quantized lines are merely a representation of the field -- the actual field does not come in lines. We simply represent a magnetic field as lines when drawing it, with denser lines representing a stronger field. But a real bar magnet has those quantized lines, I've seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 You mean when you take iron filings and spread them around the magnet, making little magnetic field lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) You mean when you take iron filings and spread them around the magnet, making little magnetic field lines? Yeah. Why are there those concentrated regions of magnetism? And also, isn't that how sunspots occur, by the existence of these field lines warping and storing potential energy? Edited October 27, 2011 by questionposter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 The iron filings form themselves into lines because each is slightly magnetized by the field, so the end of each filing is attracted to the end of the next, forming them into lines. It's not like the magnetic field is actually concentrated into little lines. I don't really know about solar dynamics, so I can't answer that question. Magnetic fields can store potential energy, but the field is continuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 The iron filings form themselves into lines because each is slightly magnetized by the field, so the end of each filing is attracted to the end of the next, forming them into lines. It's not like the magnetic field is actually concentrated into little lines. I don't really know about solar dynamics, so I can't answer that question. Magnetic fields can store potential energy, but the field is continuous. Hmm, well don't virtual particles have the same wave characteristics as real particles? So couldn't they have interference with themselves or each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrRocket Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hmm, well don't virtual particles have the same wave characteristics as real particles? So couldn't they have interference with themselves or each other? Virtual particles are, by definition, undetectable. Their "existence" comes from the perturbative nature of current quantum field theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Virtual particles are, by definition, undetectable. Their "existence" comes from the perturbative nature of current quantum field theories. But I thought that wikipedia article said they have characteristics of real particles, but they sort of "snap back" to their parent particle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek w Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) if I understand this infinitely small areas of anti-mater and matter separate as electro-magnetic waves cross space,providing just enough energy for a brief period of time to create virtual particles,which then snap back together,after electro-magnetic wave has passed. Edited October 30, 2011 by derek w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) if I understand this infinitely small areas of anti-mater and matter separate as electro-magnetic waves cross space,providing just enough energy for a brief period of time to create virtual particles,which then snap back together,after electro-magnetic wave has passed. Are you suggesting that a photon's energy get's very slowly siphoned from the creation of virtual particles? Edited October 31, 2011 by questionposter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek w Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) no i am saying virtual particles borrow the energy for a brief moment but are not strong enough to hold on to it,so the energy sticks to the photon, and the photon continues on its journey.This is my understanding so far or have i got it wrong? Edited October 31, 2011 by derek w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 no i am saying virtual particles borrow the energy for a brief moment but are not strong enough to hold on to it,so the energy sticks to the photon, and the photon continues on its journey.This is my understanding so far or have i got it wrong? Well, I think a photon can already be the virtual particle itself, hence "virtual photons". There's virtual particle pairs, but there's also virtual particle force carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek w Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 yes i can agree with this.If we say that photon travels as a wave.The front edge of the wave is exerting a tug on the fabric of space pulling matter and anti-matter apart,but then on back edge of wave the fabric of space pulls back together putting the energy back into the wave.The virtual particles only appear when the wave interacts with something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) yes i can agree with this.If we say that photon travels as a wave.The front edge of the wave is exerting a tug on the fabric of space pulling matter and anti-matter apart,but then on back edge of wave the fabric of space pulls back together putting the energy back into the wave.The virtual particles only appear when the wave interacts with something. Hmm. I don't think we can actually prove that a photon is "tugging" the fabric of space. As far as we know, photons actually distort the fabric of space even more so than matter, and I didn't even know your explanation existed. Edited November 2, 2011 by questionposter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystery111 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But I thought that wikipedia article said they have characteristics of real particles, but they sort of "snap back" to their parent particle. Not sure what is meant there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) Not sure what is meant there. http://en.wikipedia....irtual_particle "Virtual particles exhibit some of the phenomena that real particles do, such as obedience to the conservation laws" Edited November 3, 2011 by questionposter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystery111 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 http://en.wikipedia....irtual_particle "Virtual particles exhibit some of the phenomena that real particles do, such as obedience to the conservation laws" Right, I knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek w Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Yes, a virtual particle could give up its energy to another larger particle,or it could disperse into a larger number of smaller undetectable quantum fluctuations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionposter Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) Yes, a virtual particle could give up its energy to another larger particle,or it could disperse into a larger number of smaller undetectable quantum fluctuations. Wait a minute, if virtual particles just "gave up" their energy to another particle, shouldn't atoms radiate all their energy away through the forces they transmit? Edited November 4, 2011 by questionposter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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