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Battle : Science vs. Religion


Genius13
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He is not a liar, he would have to exist to be a liar... Humans are the liars in this endeavor. Still a book of fairy tales, how do you explain all the stuff it gets totally wrong? Even a blind pig finds an occasional acorn, full filled prophecy, how about all the unfulfilled prophecies? If most of your book of fairy tales is not true then why believe any of it? I have and could again make quite a list of stuff the bible got totally wrong, I see no reason to believe due to some vague claims of fore knowledge... I could make dozens of predictions and it's likely some of them would come true, would that mean i am speaking gods word? Sorry not evidence... and if you are honest you know it too...

 

To be honest I do not care if you believe or not i thought you had positive evidence, but you don't, you never did tell me why your god is better than any of the others, Krishna has prophecies that have come true as well and so do all the others.

 

So Moontanman, suppose i could show you to your OWN satisfaction that there is such thing as God - would you then accept it?

 

 

And if i could explain all the stuff it gets totally wrong to your knowledge, once again - to your own satisfaction .. would you accept that you have been mislead?

 

 

????????????????????????? if so read on. If not then tell me, because id just be wasting my time.

 

 

What about unfilled prophecies?

 

See the Bible cannot be partly correct and mostly false - it would not then be divine. Yes you can make dozens of predictions, so could you tell me who is going to become king of your house 10,000 years down the track - and could you tell me his name, and foretell the things which he will do .. a good description that is, characteristics, moral agender .. tell me hes going to guide hes people, be a leader, sacrifice his own life to save others, etc etc .. This book of fairy tales you speak of has watermarks of Jesus' coming right through out it up until Mathew untill the New testament is wriiten. More to the point though moont - would your conciouse thought consider that its bound to happen some time? And would you let me know over and over again. or would it be something that would be passed on down to other members in your family until finally this 'person' eventually comes along; Just so you could say HEY GUYS I WAS RIGHT.. Do you think this is a joke? Do you think this is just about right and wrong?

 

So go ahead, just write a few differnt things you think would totally deface the scripture. Or just 1 .. But don't expect me to do all the research on the matter if you have not yet done any on the subject yourself.

 

Krishna? Zeus, Odin, Thor, .. Kings of rome, babylon, greece, egypt, persia also considered themselves gods.. Its not about who's better then who either. God either exists or he doesn't. I say he does - you say he doesn't .. i've given you some evidence based on fact, but you ignore it with explanations based on factual fiction. Where is your evidence.

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So Moontanman, suppose i could show you to your OWN satisfaction that there is such thing as God - would you then accept it?

 

Yes i would

 

 

And if i could explain all the stuff it gets totally wrong to your knowledge, once again - to your own satisfaction .. would you accept that you have been mislead?

 

yes i would

 

????????????????????????? if so read on. If not then tell me, because id just be wasting my time.

 

 

What about unfilled prophecies?

 

See the Bible cannot be partly correct and mostly false - it would not then be divine. Yes you can make dozens of predictions, so could you tell me who is going to become king of your house 10,000 years down the track - and could you tell me his name, and foretell the things which he will do .. a good description that is, characteristics, moral agender .. tell me hes going to guide hes people, be a leader, sacrifice his own life to save others, etc etc .. This book of fairy tales you speak of has watermarks of Jesus' coming right through out it up until Mathew untill the New testament is wriiten. More to the point though moont - would your conciouse thought consider that its bound to happen some time? And would you let me know over and over again. or would it be something that would be passed on down to other members in your family until finally this 'person' eventually comes along; Just so you could say HEY GUYS I WAS RIGHT.. Do you think this is a joke? Do you think this is just about right and wrong?

 

So go ahead, just write a few differnt things you think would totally deface the scripture. Or just 1 .. But don't expect me to do all the research on the matter if you have not yet done any on the subject yourself.

 

Krishna? Zeus, Odin, Thor, .. Kings of rome, babylon, greece, egypt, persia also considered themselves gods.. Its not about who's better then who either. God either exists or he doesn't. I say he does - you say he doesn't .. i've given you some evidence based on fact, but you ignore it with explanations based on factual fiction. Where is your evidence.

 

 

Noah's ark, all of genesis, just two of my favorite fairy tales that are obviously not true.

 

I offer no evidence that god does not exist, i honestly do not know if your god or any other god or gods exist, but I see no positive evidence of any gods existence or of anything supernatural. In the lack of evidence the default position is that there are no gods...

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Yes i would

 

 

 

 

yes i would

 

 

 

 

Noah's ark, all of genesis, just two of my favorite fairy tales that are obviously not true.

 

I offer no evidence that god does not exist, i honestly do not know if your god or any other god or gods exist, but I see no positive evidence of any gods existence or of anything supernatural. In the lack of evidence the default position is that there are no gods...

 

Our senses may be the product of billions of years without a god, I simply don't know? But if you can and will, please tell me where talent such as this comes from?

http://videos2view.net/2believe-JE.htm

Edited by rigney
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Our senses may be the product of billions of years without a god, I simply don't know? But if you can and will, please tell me where talent such as this comes from?

http://videos2view.net/2believe-JE.htm

 

 

I honestly do not understand what you are asking... Where does the ability to sing come from? or where does religious belief come from? Where does talent come from? They all are part of being a human being...

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i've given you some evidence based on fact.

 

The Promise - the issue with using the bible as evidence of God is circularity. The authority of the bible comes from God. Proof of God comes from the bible. Without God, the bible is just another book, without the bible, there's no proof of God.

 

Due to their co-dependence, you can't use one as an independent source of information on the other and attempting to do so results in a circular proof.

 

See the Bible cannot be partly correct and mostly false

 

Yet a number of biblical claims are in direct conflict with not only other parts of the bible e.g. http://www.infidels....radictions.html but with observed reality. E.g. with a likely less than 10% of the diversity of earth described and ~10 million species known to science, there's no way that Noah fit the entirety of animalia on a boat the size of which is described in the bible.

 

This gives us 4 options:

1) Reject observed reality and accept the literal interpretation of the bible despite evidence to the contrary. Noah literally fit a pair of every species on earth on the ark and is thus a better taxonomist, field biologist and biological tetris player than every scientist who has ever existed put together, or a brutally ignorant misinterpretation of evolutionary theory to suggest that all of life's diversity evolved in a few thousand years from a pair of individuals from a genus without leaving any bottleneck signatures, or simply goddidit/miracle.

 

Hopefully, one's presence on a science forum would suggest that rationality prevails and we can all see the absurdity literal interpretations of not just the bible, but antiquated religious texts in general - Landover Baptist do a wittier and more thorough job of demonstrating how ridiculous literal biblical interpretation is than I could ever want to.

 

2) Partake in Christian apologetics: reinterpret the bible in light of new evidence to suggest what the passages might have really meant had they known about string theory, IVF and evolution 2000 odd years ago: E.g. The flood was actually regional to the Euphrates and they meant the whole known world to Noah at the time, or they meant all the domestic animals important to Noah at the time.

 

Again, this should be difficult to swallow for a rational person, as it smacks of "ad hockery" and "after the facting". Starting with a premise and reverse engineering the observations is fairly trite intellectual masturbation at best - and for that reason vehemently opposed and avoided by science. I would personally think it difficult for anyone of genuinely inquiring nature to really find apologetics satisfying.

 

3) Maintain a faith based belief in God, and accept the bible as literally incorrect, but divinely influenced rough guide to life: Noah didn't build a massive structurally implausible boat and fill it with an immense diversity of organisms - but the story and the morality conveyed within serve a useful purpose which guides my life and my belief in God. Not my personal position, but not one I find confronting.

 

4) Reject the bible as fallible and thus not the divine word of a perfect deity - the position of most of the scientific community, as evidenced by surveys of scientific fellowships.

Edited by Arete
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  • 1 month later...

Battle, science vs religion? Lets be serious here, I'll take scientific knowledge and any one else can take religion, you can pray, call down gods wrath, do anything you want as long as it's religion but with scientific knowledge i can build a gun and kill you easily, (loads of other options but that one just came to me, must be divine inspiration, lol) all the religion in the world will not stop the bullet nor will it keep me from being able to build the gun. I don't see any religion that can call down gods wrath with out the help of technology and technology comes from science, it's a no brainer.

 

Religion offers absolutely no positive knowledge about anything, science on the other hand is responsible for our modern civilization and all the things that go along with that. Take away all that science has delivered in the past 200 years, and people start dying immediately, with in days many millions would be dead, with in a month and billions would be dead, take away religion and people stop dying or at least have one less reason to kill each other. You can have all the belief in the world, you are welcome to it, but science is reality, pray that the electricity comes back, pray the sewage system works, pray for food, I'll take reality over pie in the sky any day....

 

 

 

yeah, so, lets see some support for the idea it's unexplained, Penn and Teller do things i can't explain, doesn't make them miracles. If it's a miracle is should be easy to show it is, just claiming it's a miracle doesn't mean shit....

 

 

 

 

No, religion doesn't explain anything, it answers no questions, it only says god did it and the realm of god did it is becoming smaller and smaller... There is no evidence for anything supernatural, no reason to explain anything by saying it is supernatural, the supernatural only tries to explain things that the supernatural claims to exist and has no support other than the supernatural...

 

I apologise for picking up on such an old post but I will take you challenge. You have rightly applied scientific knowledge to human life in our surroundings as it claims. I will now make use of eternity after earthly death as religion claims. That would make the score - science 1, religion infinity minus 1 aka infinity biggrin.gif.

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I apologise for picking up on such an old post but I will take you challenge. You have rightly applied scientific knowledge to human life in our surroundings as it claims. I will now make use of eternity after earthly death as religion claims. That would make the score - science 1, religion infinity minus 1 aka infinity biggrin.gif.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean, are you saying you have positive evidence of life after death?

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I apologise. This is a very new but an interesting culture and I am trying to adjust to it. As you might tell I have not been exposed to many people interested in the method of science and I find the constant bombarding of claims for evidence in a religion section a little tiresome but am trying to adjust to it. I understand that this is a science forum and scientific evidence however illogical for a concept such as religion is part of the territory.

 

Instead of obfuscating and evading, kindly please address his actual question and clarify what you are saying.

 

To answer the question, no I cannot produce scientific evidence to prove religion. If God exists and was to introduce Himself as God and perform a 'miracle' as evidence of being God, science would not be able to use this evidence because by science's very nature everything is explainable and there are no miracles. I'm not sure why there is a religious section on this site if religion must use scientific evidence to show it's existence.

Edited by Villain
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I'm not sure why there is a religious section on this site if religion must use scientific evidence to show it's existence.

Because theists keep showing up here saying we should believe as they do sans supporting evidence. There needs to be a place for them to post and to hear why we won't believe as they do sans evidence.

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To answer the question, no I cannot produce scientific evidence to prove religion. If God exists and was to introduce Himself as God and perform a 'miracle' as evidence of being God, science would not be able to use this evidence because by science's very nature everything is explainable and there are no miracles.

Except, that has nothing to do with the actual question you were asked, and your reply appears to be a little more than additional obfuscation and evasion. Nobody asked you to provide scientific evidence of religion, and nobody asked you to prove god. The request was simply for you to clarify what you were saying in post number 281, as it really sounded like nonsense and did not make it damned bit of sense.

Edited by iNow
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Except, that has nothing to do with the actual question you were asked, and your reply appears to be a little more than additional obfuscation and evasion. Nobody asked you to provide scientific evidence of religion, and nobody asked you to prove god. The request was simply for you to clarify what you were saying in post number 281, as it really sounded like nonsense and did not make it damned bit of sense.

 

That was my point, comparing religion and science has no point.

Edited by Villain
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That was my point, comparing religion and science has no point.

 

Then why did you both start a thread specifically equating the two and then post in this one to again, directly compare them?

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So when you said this:

 

I apologise for picking up on such an old post but I will take you challenge. You have rightly applied scientific knowledge to human life in our surroundings as it claims. I will now make use of eternity after earthly death as religion claims. That would make the score - science 1, religion infinity minus 1 aka infinity biggrin.gif.

 

You meant this?

 

That was my point, comparing religion and science has no point.

I'm sorry but if that's the case you are an extremely poor communicator because those two quotes appear to be extremely different from one another.

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I apologise. This is a very new but an interesting culture and I am trying to adjust to it. As you might tell I have not been exposed to many people interested in the method of science and I find the constant bombarding of claims for evidence in a religion section a little tiresome but am trying to adjust to it. I understand that this is a science forum and scientific evidence however illogical for a concept such as religion is part of the territory.

 

 

 

To answer the question, no I cannot produce scientific evidence to prove religion. If God exists and was to introduce Himself as God and perform a 'miracle' as evidence of being God, science would not be able to use this evidence because by science's very nature everything is explainable and there are no miracles. I'm not sure why there is a religious section on this site if religion must use scientific evidence to show it's existence.

 

 

It would be quite easy for god to prove himself, stopping the earth's rotation for a day or two would do it, i mean he is supposed to have done it once before... what's one more time for old times sake?

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It would be quite easy for god to prove himself, stopping the earth's rotation for a day or two would do it, i mean he is supposed to have done it once before... what's one more time for old times sake?

Please provide evidence for this claim.

 

That is precisely the question put to you. Please stop evading.

 

Evading what?

 

That is precisely the question put to you. Please stop evading.

 

Evading what?

Edited by Villain
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Please provide evidence for this claim.

 

http://bible.cc/joshua/10-13.htm

 

Abrahamic Theists consistently claim this to be true and they claim their holy book is proof. If god would do this again it would prove not only his existence but the veracity of the holy book this incident is described in.

 

If you want something more generic for proof of existence of a god then all he needs to do is something omnipotent, like swap the orbits of Venus and Mars with out disturbing the order and arrangement of the other planets...

 

A god or goddess or multiple gods and or goddesses could easily show proof of their existence...

 

It's a bot iNow....

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Clarification of post #281.

 

Ok

 

Moontanman said:

 

Battle, science vs religion? Lets be serious here, I'll take scientific knowledge and any one else can take religion, you can pray, call down gods wrath, do anything you want as long as it's religion but with scientific knowledge i can build a gun and kill you easily, (loads of other options but that one just came to me, must be divine inspiration, lol) all the religion in the world will not stop the bullet nor will it keep me from being able to build the gun.

 

To which I responded:

I apologise for picking up on such an old post but I will take you challenge. He made this post quite a while ago so I thought I should mention that to those who did not know. You have rightly applied scientific knowledge to human life in our surroundings as it claims In the conditions set out above he used a gun to kill me in. I will now make use of eternity after earthly death as religion claims I then used anything as long as it's religion and claimed eternal life. That would make the score - science 1, religion infinity minus 1 aka infinity biggrin.gif. This is a score followed by a smiling emoticon.

Is that belittling enough for you?

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Ok

 

Moontanman said:

 

 

 

To which I responded:

I apologise for picking up on such an old post but I will take you challenge. He made this post quite a while ago so I thought I should mention that to those who did not know. You have rightly applied scientific knowledge to human life in our surroundings as it claims In the conditions set out above he used a gun to kill me in. I will now make use of eternity after earthly death as religion claims I then used anything as long as it's religion and claimed eternal life. That would make the score - science 1, religion infinity minus 1 aka infinity biggrin.gif. This is a score followed by a smiling emoticon.

Is that belittling enough for you?

 

 

Ok the difference is that afterlife does not affect reality in anyway therefore it is meaningless...

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