best oxidizer?

[skwiff]

what woud be the best oxidizer to use in a solid fuel rocket using margerine and sugar as the fuel?

Edited September 1, 2011 by skwiff

[Leader Bee]

I'd go with putting some aluminium foil into a blender and using the result . I'm sure others could come up with a better idea though.

 

It sounds like you're after household materials so thats why i've suggested this. Alternatives would be hydrogen peroxide, which you can get from good old hair bleaching kits, your local hairdresser will probably sell this.

 

if you're lucky enough to have a pool then you'll probably have chlorine at hand which is also an oxidising agent, maybe thy this. Then again, these aren't solid...

Edited September 1, 2011 by Leader Bee

[Caesius]

Oxidizers can be very dangerous. If you use too strong of an oxidizer it may become explosive instead of a quick burn. A good example of this could be compared to a certain fuel, when burned alone it is just that, a fuel. But when mixed with a strong oxidizer it becomes one of the most commonly used commercial explosive. Because of this, it might be a violation of the forums policy to tell you exactly what to use. If you want something to look at that is similar but not an explosive, try looking up potassium permanganate and glycerin.

 

I'd go with putting some aluminium foil into a blender and using the result . I'm sure others could come up with a better idea though.

 

It sounds like you're after household materials so thats why i've suggested this. Alternatives would be hydrogen peroxide, which you can get from good old hair bleaching kits, your local hairdresser will probably sell this.

 

if you're lucky enough to have a pool then you'll probably have chlorine at hand which is also an oxidising agent, maybe thy this. Then again, these aren't solid...

 

I would stay away from using pool chlorine for its oxidizing effects, there is a good chance a byproduct will be chlorine gas, which depending on the concentration could smell like a pool, give you a nose bleed, or kill you.

 

After you powder your aluminum, it will turn into aluminum oxide. Which, even though it is an oxidizer, is very hard to get going. You will need a very hot flame or a starting oxidizer to get a chain reaction going.

 

I'm not sure about hydrogen peroxide. Most hydrogen peroxide that you can buy at a store is about 98% water.

[skwiff]

Oxidizers can be very dangerous. If you use too strong of an oxidizer it may become explosive instead of a quick burn. A good example of this could be compared to a certain fuel, when burned alone it is just that, a fuel. But when mixed with a strong oxidizer it becomes one of the most commonly used commercial explosive. Because of this, it might be a violation of the forums policy to tell you exactly what to use. If you want something to look at that is similar but not an explosive, try looking up potassium permanganate and glycerin.

 

 

 

I would stay away from using pool chlorine for its oxidizing effects, there is a good chance a byproduct will be chlorine gas, which depending on the concentration could smell like a pool, give you a nose bleed, or kill you.

 

After you powder your aluminum, it will turn into aluminum oxide. Which, even though it is an oxidizer, is very hard to get going. You will need a very hot flame or a starting oxidizer to get a chain reaction going.

 

I'm not sure about hydrogen peroxide. Most hydrogen peroxide that you can buy at a store is about 98% water.

 

 

would a mix of high chlorine bleach and auminium powder work when mixed with the fuel?

[Caesius]

I am not quite sure, there isn't that much of the oxidizer in the chlorine bleach just like store bought hydrogen peroxide. I don't think there is enough of the oxidizer in bleach to get aluminum oxide to react. But like I said before, you would have a pretty good chance of making some chlorine gas if you did get it going.

[G Anthony]

First, let's get the terms oxidizers and reducers straight. The fuels you mention would be classed as reducers or reducing agents. Yes, to power a rocket, you need an oxidizer. Mere air or compressed air might do if you do not need a high impulse rocket engine. Air is 21% oxygen. You can electolyze water using a car battery or a battery charger. You'll need to rig some way to collect the oxygen that is generated at the anode. Compress it using a shop compressor, but pure oxygen is dangerous and might ignite the lubricating oil. BOOM!

 

Any sort of bottle that you might use to contain this compressed oxygen must be able to withstand the pressure, of course. And it should not be so heavy that it would weigh down your rocket. Sugar and margarine? Why? Aluminum foil would also be a reducer or fuel. If you are going to electrolyze water, why not collect the hydrogen gas that is produced at the cathode? Compress it like you would the oxygen. Then, you need to design and fabricate a little rocket engine along the lines NASA uses. Look up John Goddard. Don't re-invent the wheel.

 

This is a real project, you know. It is feasible. You need to scale your rocket so that it is large enough to work but not so large as to be a danger to yourself or to others. Actually, be aware that if you make a mistake it may your last.

 

This is not something I would do on a lark. You need to have a significant purpose. No purpose, no project.

[John Cuthber]

Fundamentally, if you need to ask questions like

"what woud be the best oxidizer to use in a solid fuel rocket using margerine and sugar as the fuel? "

then you shouldn't be playing with rocket fuels.

 

Leader Bee's post is largely garbled nonsense.

[G Anthony]

Solid fuel rockets are different. My good buddy and I once made a solid fuel rocket out of a CO2 cartridge stuffed with match-heads and using a "Jet-Ex" hobby cannon fuse. I insisted that we hunker down in a basement door stairwell and take cover after we lit the long fuse. Good thing. We launched our "rocket" from a short length of plumbing pipe to guide it and get it on its way. Our device turned into a pipe bomb. Schrapnel flew everwhere and broke a window on my house. I was digging pieces out of our home's wooden siding and from the garage wall for weeks. I told him we shouldn't just cut off the match heads without removing the cardboard inside the tips. He wouldn't listen. The cardboard clogged the nozzle and turned our rocket into a neighborhood hazard. Don't do what we did.

 

It is hard to get some chemical oxidizers but, potassium permanganate is a good one that some swimming pool suppliers sell as an anti-bacterial additive to the water, like certain chlorine containing substances. Mixing permanganate and glycerin in a small jar or test tube will produce a firework effect something like a Roman candle if you wait a few minutes for the mixture to heat up spontaneously. It is hard to imagine how you could develop this into a solid fuel rocket, however.

 

Get a good college chemistry textbook and look up oxidizers and reducers. It may even discuss how solid fuel rockets are actually made. There have been so many accidents on the launching pad that the trick will be to not kill yourself. Fooling around without much knowledge of exactly what you are doing is a good way to do just that.

 

I survived. I became an inorganic chemist. Making my own fireworks, firecrackers, rockets and the like were my first attraction to science in general, so I would not discourage you except to warn you of the danger. So, get help. See a high school chemistry teacher or a college chemistry professor who will guide you to safe ways to proceed.

 

I am not quite sure, there isn't that much of the oxidizer in the chlorine bleach just like store bought hydrogen peroxide. I don't think there is enough of the oxidizer in bleach to get aluminum oxide to react. But like I said before, you would have a pretty good chance of making some chlorine gas if you did get it going.

 

Aluminum is the fuel, not aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide is often called alumina. It is quite inert. It contains oxygen, but is not considered to be an oxidizer. You can melt it in an oxy-hydrogen torch with some chromium oxide to make artificial ruby. If you used pure alumina, you would get artificial sapphire. There is a trick to this however. Mix powdered aluminum with Fe₂O₅ (magnetic ferrous ferric oxide) and you can make a sparkler type of firework. Old-timer railroad men remember when they used to weld steel rails using a mixture like this which will produce a fairly good quality molten iron. It would be only a temporary fix because it is quite brittle and not as strong as steel.

[skwiff]

Solid fuel rockets are different. My good buddy and I once made a solid fuel rocket out of a CO2 cartridge stuffed with match-heads and using a "Jet-Ex" hobby cannon fuse. I insisted that we hunker down in a basement door stairwell and take cover after we lit the long fuse. Good thing. We launched our "rocket" from a short length of plumbing pipe to guide it and get it on its way. Our device turned into a pipe bomb. Schrapnel flew everwhere and broke a window on my house. I was digging pieces out of our home's wooden siding and from the garage wall for weeks. I told him we shouldn't just cut off the match heads without removing the cardboard inside the tips. He wouldn't listen. The cardboard clogged the nozzle and turned our rocket into a neighborhood hazard. Don't do what we did.

 

It is hard to get some chemical oxidizers but, potassium permanganate is a good one that some swimming pool suppliers sell as an anti-bacterial additive to the water, like certain chlorine containing substances. Mixing permanganate and glycerin in a small jar or test tube will produce a firework effect something like a Roman candle if you wait a few minutes for the mixture to heat up spontaneously. It is hard to imagine how you could develop this into a solid fuel rocket, however.

 

Get a good college chemistry textbook and look up oxidizers and reducers. It may even discuss how solid fuel rockets are actually made. There have been so many accidents on the launching pad that the trick will be to not kill yourself. Fooling around without much knowledge of exactly what you are doing is a good way to do just that.

 

I survived. I became an inorganic chemist. Making my own fireworks, firecrackers, rockets and the like were my first attraction to science in general, so I would not discourage you except to warn you of the danger. So, get help. See a high school chemistry teacher or a college chemistry professor who will guide you to safe ways to proceed.

 

the reason i chose margarine as the feu is because of its very high calorific content (2800 Kcal/100) but i was not to sure about which oxidizer to use so thats why i put it to the forums ^^

 

 

Aluminum is the fuel, not aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide is often called alumina. It is quite inert. It contains oxygen, but is not considered to be an oxidizer. You can melt it in an oxy-hydrogen torch with some chromium oxide to make artificial ruby. If you used pure alumina, you would get artificial sapphire. There is a trick to this however. Mix powdered aluminum with Fe₂O₅ (magnetic ferrous ferric oxide) and you can make a sparkler type of firework. Old-timer railroad men remember when they used to weld steel rails using a mixture like this which will produce a fairly good quality molten iron. It would be only a temporary fix because it is quite brittle and not as strong as steel.

[Athiril]

Potassium Permanganate is easy and cheap to get here... I get it from my local photographical chemical supplier.. though that is what I actually use it for.. making B&W slides from film.

 

 

In any case, can we go back to the idea of using chlorine in a rocket? It can support combustion without any oxygen present, the different options of generating chlorine gas on the fly may be interesting too.

 

 

 

The reaction between hydrogen and chlorine gases in light might be an interesting idea to use.. the reaction occurring after it leaves the rocket.. or perhaps right at the bottom of the nozzles if you stick an LED (chemically resistant sealed etc) in there?

 

 

 

Speaking of old-timer welding. Here in Melbourne I saw welding on tram tracks at night, and they were using a chemical mixture to do it.

[Athiril]

double post

Edited September 2, 2011 by Athiril

[skwiff]

Potassium Permanganate is easy and cheap to get here... I get it from my local photographical chemical supplier.. though that is what I actually use it for.. making B&W slides from film.

 

 

In any case, can we go back to the idea of using chlorine in a rocket? It can support combustion without any oxygen present, the different options of generating chlorine gas on the fly may be interesting too.

 

 

 

The reaction between hydrogen and chlorine gases in light might be an interesting idea to use.. the reaction occurring after it leaves the rocket.. or perhaps right at the bottom of the nozzles if you stick an LED (chemically resistant sealed etc) in there?

 

 

 

Speaking of old-timer welding. Here in Melbourne I saw welding on tram tracks at night, and they were using a chemical mixture to do it.

 

 

gas rockects are harder to store ( i am keeping the fuel in my freezer atm ^^) plus idont think i should be playing around with gasous halogens... i think i'l get some KMnO4 of KNO3 ^^

Edited September 2, 2011 by skwiff

[Enthalpy]

Avoid permanganates and chlorates, as their pressure exponent exceeding 1 lets them detonate instead of burn as needed in a rocket.

 

Available hydrogen peroxide is very dilute and unusable. Excellent, because any usable concentration makes peroxide very dangerous.