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What is your justification for believing in a God?


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There is also the fact the Jesus is not mentioned in any historical records or writings other than the new testament. Quite few things that happened at the time of the crucifixion, earth quakes, three hours of darkness, the walking dead saints are not mentioned in any of the writings or records of the time. the first mention of Jesus and his miracles or christians wasn't until almost 100 years later and that is almost certainly inserted in those writings a couple hundred years later by christians who are notorious for lying to support their religion.

 

Brace yourself for people claiming references to the existence of Christians is somehow evidence for Jesus.

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Brace yourself for people claiming references to the existence of Christians is somehow evidence for Jesus.

 

 

oh I'm ready for them...

 

The existence of screaming harry Potter fans does not mean harry Potter was a real person or that Hogworts exists or that magic works...

 

:embarass:

Edited by Moontanman
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Absurd! What book have you been reading?

Lately, the Wheel of Time series. It's quite good, even if a bit slow paced.

I was thinking "homo unius libri" while I wikied your reference. The first sentence read, "At the dawn of time, a deity known as the Creator forged the universe and the Wheel of Time, which, as it turns, spins all lives..."

 

Even if they deny you ever had a skeptical bone in your body, never let them say you didn't have a sense of irony! Absolutely hilarious!

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magnificant?

 

sorry, meant magnificently and magnificent

 

I think magnificant is that little packet you pack in your box to keep your goods from getting smaller during transport.

 

Jaden,

 

Was thinking about Mooey's post on the way home today, and had a thought that might back up her argument a bit.

 

If the Bible and the rules within, are from the God that created the universe, why do they seem to be skewed in favor of Humans, and not only that, but human males.

 

Would the rules read differently if God would have delivered his message to an Amazon wandering in the hills?

 

Or if there is a sentient, language using species on Titan where each individual impregnates themselves, would rules about women being subservient to men make any sense?

 

Did God deliver any messages to starfish-kind about how they should behave?

 

Do whales go to hell, if they are bad whales?

 

Seems that the kind of things the Bible lays out are skewed toward keeping powerful males in control, and asking everybody else, who is not the dominant male, to bow down before him, and be subservient and meek. (with the reward being something you get AFTER you die).

 

You don't see any indication here, that the Bible was written by human males? And not the creator of the universe?

 

Regards, TAR2

 

 

Or a sulpher based organism living near a volcanic vent at the bottom of the ocean might FAVOR an afterlife that promised boiling water for eternity.

Edited by tar
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magnificant?

 

sorry, meant magnificently and magnificent

 

I think magnificant is that little packet you pack in your box to keep your goods from getting smaller during transport.

 

Jaden,

 

Was thinking about Mooey's post on the way home today, and had a thought that might back up her argument a bit.

 

If the Bible and the rules within, are from the God that created the universe, why do they seem to be skewed in favor of Humans, and not only that, but human males.

 

Would the rules read differently if God would have delivered his message to an Amazon wandering in the hills?

 

Or if there is a sentient, language using species on Titan where each individual impregnates themselves, would rules about women being subservient to men make any sense?

 

Did God deliver any messages to starfish-kind about how they should behave?

 

Do whales go to hell, if they are bad whales?

 

Seems that the kind of things the Bible lays out are skewed toward keeping powerful males in control, and asking everybody else, who is not the dominant male, to bow down before him, and be subservient and meek. (with the reward being something you get AFTER you die).

 

You don't see any indication here, that the Bible was written by human males? And not the creator of the universe?

 

Regards, TAR2

 

 

Or a sulpher based organism living near a volcanic vent at the bottom of the ocean might FAVOR an afterlife that promised boiling water for eternity.

 

 

i agree, the rules to seem to be skewed in the direction of us males for sure. I think a pretty good argument could be made that the old testament is the story of an alien overlord breeding a certain group of humans for some purpose.. but I am a little weird in that direction... >:D:doh:

Edited by Moontanman
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Moontanman,

 

Hey, I am weird in ALL directions. I'll entertain the idea of an alien overlord. Keep it in the back pocket, so to speak. It's not completely out of the question. But it doesn't really answer much, if it were true. Who is pulling THAT guys strings?

 

And I want to correct myself about the boiling water. Searched the Bible for boiling water and it didn't come up. Some boiling pots, but that seemed to be related to wars, as in defending the walls by pouring the boiling oil down on the attackers.

The boiling water torment for non-believers, seems to be a feature of hell God forgot to mention to his earlier prophets and only told his last one, Mohammed. Wonder why he would leave such important information out until his final messages to Mohammed?

 

Maybe, just maybe, its a fairy tale. And isn't true.

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How could a miracle occur if there is no God?

 

Ancestor worshipers might disagree...

 

 

Nothing can happen without a cause.

 

What is the cause of a particular atom decaying?

 

This is true. However, the Judeo-Christian God has much supporting evidence, and if this God is real then we already know the cause of the Big Bang. No other theory has any evidence.

 

No the Judeo_Christian god does not have any evidence, none...

 

The difference between God and the Big Bang is that the big bang was an event. Something happened, and therefore there must be a cause. God never 'happened,' he is eternal. There was never an event, and therefore no cause is required. If the universe was eternal, then I would have no problem accepting that it does not need a cause. However, we know that this is not the case.

 

Why can the cause not be something natural and explainable? Why does it have to be a god?

 

If there is so much evidence for abiogenesis, then why can't you show me any? I have given plenty of evidence for God in previous posts. The links you gave did not contain any evidence.

 

What then would you call evidence?

 

How would that confirm there is no god? It would certainly eliminate that particular reason for my belief, but I would still have many more.

 

Confirming there is no god would require god like powers of knowledge, it will never happen, but that doesn't support the existence of a god, but he will be pushed into smaller and smaller places...

 

What events could possibly produce homochirality in amino acids?

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/originoflife.html#homochirality

 

Where in the Bible does it say that God created unchangeable species? Evolution is a fact of nature; life adapts, but how does this disprove God?

 

Genesis makes the claim that god created all animals to reproduce after their own kind, there is no wiggle room for evolution on the scale we see in the fossil record...

 

I have given evidence earlier in this thread. The bible contains a huge number of prophecies which have been fulfilled throughout history. I listed some of these in an earlier post (#542). No-one in this thread has, as of yet, attempted to nullify this evidence. It seems they prefer to ignore it. :huh:

 

How about the prophecies that did not come true, one real big one would be this

 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

 

 

 

 

I won't ignore anything you say. If someone makes a claim and they try to support it, I will investigate. For example, when Moontanman referred me to a list of videos which supposedly contained evidence for abiogenesis, I spent many hours watching them. I am not so stubborn that I won't admit when I have been proven wrong. It's just that you havn't done so, no matter how much you insist that you have.

 

Again I ask what would be evidence of abiogenesis you would accept? I do appreciate you watching those videos but I am puzzled as to how they or the processes described are not evidence.... What would you consider evidence?

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Jaden,

 

Back in September 2009 in a thread titled "Evolution for Dummies" I wrote a post that recieved 2 pluses, and a comment that it was a nice description of abiogenisis. Not sure if it breaks the self advertising rule (not my intent), but I've copied it here because it falls in with Moontanman's suggestion that real answers may (must?) be available, that don't require the miracle touch of a deity.

 

How do we get from dead, unintentional stuff, to stuff that is purposely trying to live and reproduce and survive.

 

And I don't think a realistic answer is too difficult. Although I don't know all the details, and can't fill in all the gaps I think it goes something like this.

 

The Earth formed from a collection of elements, including the heavier elements that were formed in the nuclear furnace of a former star that exploded and left its bits about to gather together with gravities help to form the sun and the planets and the asteroids and the other items in our solar system. As molten stuff on Earth cooled, the contituent minerals formed. Oxygen, aluminum, silicon, different elements joined together with chemical bonds to form compounds that because of their atomic shapes and nature, formed crystals, when bonds that fit were near. The crystals grew. They knew not what shape they would take, but the crystals actually grew. No mind involved. No intention. What fit, fit, and kept on fitting. And the crystal grew. Then on the surface, hydrogen and oxygen, formed water, and the atmosphere developed from nitrogen and other gases, pools formed from rain and evaporation and rain again. Lightning storms, molten lava about, energy from the sun, kept things mixed up and moving about, dissolving things, salts and chemicals. Phosphates, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon. Forming rings and bonds, breaking apart, forming again, depending upon what was around, next to each other, and how thing where mixed up. If stuff fit, it fit, and kept fitting together. Can't tell you the exact order that what occurred occured in, or the exact mechanisms involved in each step but organic compounds formed and dissolved and formed again. The right combinations occurred to form RNA and DNA components, clumps and modules of the stuff mixing about and grouping for various chemical reasons, with the energy of the sun, and the heat of the Earth keeping things churning. RNA DNA, Mitochondria, metabolism, cellular structure, evolving. What fit fit, and kept fitting together. What didn't fit, didn't happen. If movement aided in gathering chemicals, those chemicals combinations that created movement worked better than those that didn't.

 

The key was that at some point in the above, some arrangement of stuff was complex enough, and fit together well enough with its environment of pressure, heat, and available chemicals, that it could split and recombine with unorganized chemicals to make two of itself. To reproduce the pattern. To reproduce its pattern. To live, and reproduce. The rest is history. Perhaps we are the offspring of the first mitochondria, as surely as we are the offspring of Lucy.

 

Regards TAR

 

P.S. Interesting to me, is the fact that women are born with a full complement of eggs in their ovaries. That means that half the chemical instructions, to put you together are as old as your mom. One quarter as old as your grandma. One eighth as old as your great grandma. One ?th as old as Lucy. One ?th as old as that piece of RNA in my above example.

 

Regards, TAR2

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"-- Science is about facts regardless of belief, Religion is about belief, regardless of the facts" - doG

What is social science?

What is common sense?

What is common sense to someone who hasn't learned physics? Are there any strings at all that bind us together?

Is psychology a science? It gave us the "mid life crisis"; the supporting stats approved by a psychologist;

It is commonsense to some of us that the best life passes through a long series of crises, not just one.

And it is common sense that data collected non randomly is unreliable.

That the data leading to the "mid life crisis" came from 36 male university staff nearing 40 yrs of age

Only 36? all male? All mid life?

God is in physics - water does not flow up hill

God is in psychology - experience might help when bullies turn up

It does seem that there is something invisible that binds a community together.

Stop nurturing your community and it is not likely to get stronger.

Sometimes I think that Humans created God while they struggled against unpleasantly wealthy people who otherwise run the show. example easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man into the kingdom of Heaven

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God is in physics - water does not flow up hill

God is in psychology - experience might help when bullies turn up

 

I find this rather ironic. I would expect that if God really is in Physics, then water WOULD flow uphill every now and then, as proof of miracles. Or maybe that water will flow down to the starving dehydrated children in Africa who are otherwise dying of thirst and maladies connected to bad water sources.

 

Or maybe that water would flow in space, if the universe was created by god for the purpose of man as the bible claims. Or that the laws of physic would break on the command of God when an innocent baby is suffering by great evil. Not all the time, no, that would make us get used to it. Just every now and then. That would be God's work.

 

 

 

Yet, what we have are rules of nature that are completely indifferent to humans, work regardless of our needs, wants, deeds, experience, experiments, or prayer.

 

.... I see that as proof against God, not for him.

 

~mooey

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God is in physics - water does not flow up hill

It could be said that formation of clouds takes water up hill, to neutralise gravity.

But that aside, rules that are indifferent to human, prayer etc are reliable, consistent, therefore helpful

Is an invisible God harder to see because of the distracting voices of the false gods;

is God another of those treasures whose value is unknown till out of reach?

?

?

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God is in physics - water does not flow up hill

 

No, that just means physics has certain natural laws that are consistent. That's not a proof for god, as I said above.

 

It could be said that formation of clouds takes water up hill, to neutralise gravity.

 

No, it couldn't. We know what makes clouds form, they are quite heavily susceptible to gravity (rain, anyone?) and to all of the other consistent, natural laws of physics.

 

It's not proof of God. If we explain something without the need of an external all-powerful being, why would we need that external all-powerful being to exist at all...? We can explain clouds, water flow, and physics in general without needing the influence of God. Hence, none of them are proof of his or her existence.

 

But that aside, rules that are indifferent to human, prayer etc are reliable, consistent, therefore helpful

 

I am at a loss as how that makes any sort of sense.

 

You're basically saying that the lack of proof for god is proof of god, and that the fact 99.99999% of nature is completely inconsistent with human survival is helpful.. or a proof of god. I don't see how that's any sort of logical.

 

Is an invisible God harder to see because of the distracting voices of the false gods;

 

An invisible god is impossible to see by definition. He therefore needs to reveal himself through other means.

 

is God another of those treasures whose value is unknown till out of reach?

 

Maybe, but then all we can say is that God MAY exist, but we have no proof for his existence yet.

 

~mooey

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How so? Please elaborate how God is different than Santa Claus?

The "God theory" comes from the Bible, whereas the "Santa Claus" theory comes from parents. The Bibe doesn't say that God is false, but your parents do(or no longer deny their lie).

 

I we go by this logic, you must believe in Harry Potter, because the Harry Potter books never said Harry Potter does not exist.

 

~mooey

There's a big difference between Harry Potter, and the Bible.

1. The author of Harry Potter would even say that the books are false. The authors of the Bible are no longer availiable.

 

2. The Bible tells the story of creation, whereas Harry Potter doesn't fit with anything we see today.

 

 

Please, next time, before you post stuff like that, try to see how I would respond. This is a big waste of time which could have been avoided.

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2. The Bible tells the story of creation, whereas Harry Potter doesn't fit with anything we see today.

 

 

Minor correction. The Bible tells a story of creation. It's not the only one available. It's not even the only religious-without-a-scrap-of-scientific-evidence one available.

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Ancestor worshipers might disagree...

And they have better (or equal) science, and logic than us in the modern world?

 

Minor correction. The Bible tells a story of creation. It's not the only one available. It's not even the only religious-without-a-scrap-of-scientific-evidence one available.

I am talking about the creation of our world, yes there are crazy theories out there!

 

What is the cause of a particular atom decaying?

Think before you post! Think of the answer before you ask the question!

If you can't figure it out, why is the universe here?

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I am talking about the creation of our world, yes there are crazy theories out there!

 

I am well aware of what you're talking about - and my point stands. The Bible does not have a monopoly on religious creation stories. And if you're so willing to dismiss those as crazy theories, why should we take your religiously based theory any more seriously?

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What then would you call evidence?

If you could perform abiogenesis, then that would just as good as God healing an amputee, I guess.

 

I am well aware of what you're talking about - and my point stands. The Bible does not have a monopoly on religious creation stories. And if you're so willing to dismiss those as crazy theories, why should we take your religiously based theory any more seriously?

Then pretend you believe in one, and show me that it is better.

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Then pretend you believe in one, and show me that it is better.

 

i'm not the one claiming that religious creation myths = science. I was simply pointing out that you seem to be laboring under the misconception that the Bible has the only horse in that race.

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Confirming there is no god would require god like powers of knowledge, it will never happen, but that doesn't support the existence of a god, but he will be pushed into smaller and smaller places...

And that doesn't confirm it?

he will be pushed into smaller and smaller places...
He will, huh? That sounds like a confirmation. However, I think the opposite. I think atheism is doing that.
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If you could perform abiogenesis, then that would just as good as God healing an amputee, I guess.

 

So if a scientist makes artificial life in the lab you will admit that there is no god?

 

 

Then pretend you believe in one, and show me that it is better.

 

 

Show me one that is accurate... the one you cling desperately to is trivially falsified...

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i'm not the one claiming that religious creation myths = science. I was simply pointing out that you seem to be laboring under the misconception that the Bible has the only horse in that race.

By logic, I will list them out.

1.Christianity

2. Atheism

=other religions

Atheism is illogical, and so are other religions.

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And that doesn't confirm it?He will, huh? That sounds like a confirmation.

 

God has been in retreat since the enlightenment, he has gone from the explanation for everything to explaining nothing...

 

However, I think the opposite. I think atheism is doing that.

 

How could non belief affect god?

 

By logic, I will list them out.

1.Christianity

2. Atheism

=other religions

Atheism is illogical, and so are other religions.

 

 

How is your favorite fairy tale any more logical than anyone else's?

 

And they have better (or equal) science, and logic than us in the modern world?

 

They have exactly the same evidence you do.... ie nothing....

 

 

I am talking about the creation of our world, yes there are crazy theories out there!

 

Yes, this is ture but all of them including yours is equally crazy...

 

 

Think before you post! Think of the answer before you ask the question!

 

I humbly suggest you consider this... pot kettle black....

 

If you can't figure it out, why is the universe here?

 

Why does it have to have a reason? Why does that reason have to be your favorite god myth?

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