# What is your justification for believing in a God?

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Yes i know how much of the scriptures that has been uncovered is true... 0... nada... none, nothing.... Do you really think that because i am an atheist i have never read scripture? That I have never attended a church? How condescending, I was raised fundamentalist Christian, raised to quake in fear of doubting anything the preacher said... I have read the bible and quite a bit of other holy books, it's all made up horse feathers, if you know differently please feel free to show some true scriptures that could not have been known by humans and had to come from god... can't do it? God got your tongue? Oh i have to believe before i can understand, horse feathers, I once believed, but I made the mistake of really reading the bible and I realized i was being asked to worship a psychopathic monster and that absolutely none of it was true in any way shape or form, come on give those true scriptures.... horse feathers...

Hmm... It appears that you were not raised correctly in christianity. Which is common because so many people misinturpret it within the religion itself. Your reason for abiding by it should not be fear of hell. But rather love and obedience to your lord god and respect for the sacrafice Jesus Christ made on the cross to save you. Doubts are natural, And its ashamed if you were taught anything other than that. If you were told that if you ever doubted a single thing the scriptures tell you then you will go to hell then you were falsely informed. The doubt is natural.. Remember? Human beings are imperfect, we make mistakes and we are wonderous creatures. Doubts are only natural the key is to not let them bring you down and out of your belief. This persecution was predicted in the book of revelations and the book before that. Did you know that? And as for the scriptures there are numerous ones. The bible is the most reliable piece of history we have but its no good when people deny whats inside it. Many events of the bible previously belived to be untrue have been archeologically discovered to have actually happened. All the mega miracles? No. Because would be last to be revealed and it in part kills your reason to have faith. And you did not live in christianity correctly which means any credible info you have from being within christianity is nonexistant. And before a conversation starts about why you were taught that way yes the church is completely corrupted and incorrect. You have to interpret and feel the scriptures for yourself along with everything else you know about it.

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Okay if you want to have the discussion about proof of gods existence we can start that. First remember its called faith for a reason. Not just to sound like a good thing that people should do.

And he is not malevolent, He wants to test your will to give up evil acts of evil and if you will come to him and Jesus Christ for help in doing so. If you do not do so that is attributed to you, Not Gods will to see you do evil. Everything good is not attributed to god and everything bad is not attributed to the devil. Most things in life are attributed to God. But he does them for a good reason and thats part of why you have to have faith.

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No one can possibly imagine how badly i would love just once for one of these... theists... to actually back up their horse feathers, multilevel marketing schemers are more honest... want to go for an airplane ride, a ticket only costs you $1000 dollars and then you sell tickets to others for$1000 dollars and they sell tickets for \$1000 the first on board will make a killing....

You will never get solid physical proof of the existence of God in all likelyhood. That again is why it is called faith. To possibly understand it you have to drop your scientific way of thinking that gets you through life in the world. Because this is not in this world, Which is emphasized so much in the bible the difference between worldly and "heavenly" or anything thats not worldly. You arent in the same place. Therefore the same way of thinking will not work.

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Hmm... It appears that you were not raised correctly in christianity.

Says who? You? why are you an expert on how to raise someone correctly in Christianity?

Which is common because so many people misinturpret it within the religion itself. Your reason for abiding by it should not be fear of hell. But rather love and obedience to your lord god and respect for the sacrafice Jesus Christ made on the cross to save you. Doubts are natural, And its ashamed if you were taught anything other than that. If you were told that if you ever doubted a single thing the scriptures tell you then you will go to hell then you were falsely informed. The doubt is natural.. Remember? Human beings are imperfect, we make mistakes and we are wonderous creatures. Doubts are only natural the key is to not let them bring you down and out of your belief. This persecution was predicted in the book of revelations and the book before that. Did you know that?

Yes i knew that, virtually all religions predict such persecution, it makes the believers closer and easier to control.

And as for the scriptures there are numerous ones.

name one that could not have been known by humans or not intentionally full filled to make it look that way?

The bible is the most reliable piece of history we have but its no good when people deny whats inside it.

Give some examples

Many events of the bible previously belived to be untrue have been archeologically discovered to have actually happened.

Events? or miracles? I could write a book about an alien invasion of New York City and use real people places and events but it would still be fiction...

All the mega miracles? No. Because would be last to be revealed and it in part kills your reason to have faith.

Oh yes, Noah's ark is real, instant creation of all life in six days is true... a great deal of the bible can be demonstrably falsified... easily...

And you did not live in christianity correctly which means any credible info you have from being within christianity is nonexistant.

Again, a positive assertion, show some evidence of this...

And before a conversation starts about why you were taught that way yes the church is completely corrupted and incorrect. You have to interpret and feel the scriptures for yourself along with everything else you know about it.

I have read the scriptures, if even half of them are true god is a psychopathic monster, why worship him even if he is real? If Jesus Christ was real he was morally corrupt, he supported slavery !

Edited by Moontanman
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You said that if half of them are true he is a monster. Okay, First i will AGAIN state that if he is God it is impossible for him to possibly be a monster. Only us can be monsters. He does everything for a specific reason.

Anyway i must go and i will continue this arguement tommorow.

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You said that if half of them are true he is a monster. Okay, First i will AGAIN state that if he is God it is impossible for him to possibly be a monster. Only us can be monsters. He does everything for a specific reason.

Anyway i must go and i will continue this arguement tommorow.

IF is the most important word you used in that post but I have to admit you are being honest, there is no proof of god, you have to have faith but that is just sugar coated horse feathers, why is your god real and Allah is not? Why is your god real and Krishna is not? Seriously, you might be honest in that you have to have faith but why faith in your god? But you need to demonstrate why god cannot be a monster, I mean he demanded genocide, rape, child molestation, slavery, the list of monstrous deeds either demanded by him or allowed by him go on and on, just saying he is above those concerns is a cop out and a man who is honest will admit that...

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You will never get solid physical proof of the existence of God in all likelyhood. That again is why it is called faith. To possibly understand it you have to drop your scientific way of thinking that gets you through life in the world. Because this is not in this world, Which is emphasized so much in the bible the difference between worldly and "heavenly" or anything thats not worldly. You arent in the same place. Therefore the same way of thinking will not work.

Cap'n, please separate this out into a new thread, i would like to nail this eel to a tree or be nailed which ever happens.

To Superfusion, to honestly say this you first have to demonstrate why your god is the only god, unless you do this then every other god is just as real as yours as long as someone has faith they exist...

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Cap'n, please separate this out into a new thread, i would like to nail this eel to a tree or be nailed which ever happens.

To Superfusion, to honestly say this you first have to demonstrate why your god is the only god, unless you do this then every other god is just as real as yours as long as someone has faith they exist...

*sigh*

The only way you can see is if you try it yourself. But you have to have solid proof and that will never be generated. But you are blinded by your consistently worldly view on the subject. I can see just from what you told me that you weren't taught christianity correctly. Its been seriously turned and tuned and now for some reason us humans can predict who's gonna go to hell and who's not. Not a choice for us down here to make. You are supposed to disagree with homosexuality and transgender behavior. But not hate the people that practice it.. Or dislike them.. It applys in any case, Your job as a christian is to try and stretch as far to Jesus Christ image as possible. You do not have to evangalize but it is a service to others if you do. Though God is perfectly fine with your service to him personally by longing for a deep relationship with him.

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IF is the most important word you used in that post but I have to admit you are being honest, there is no proof of god, you have to have faith but that is just sugar coated horse feathers, why is your god real and Allah is not? Why is your god real and Krishna is not? Seriously, you might be honest in that you have to have faith but why faith in your god? But you need to demonstrate why god cannot be a monster, I mean he demanded genocide, rape, child molestation, slavery, the list of monstrous deeds either demanded by him or allowed by him go on and on, just saying he is above those concerns is a cop out and a man who is honest will admit that...

These are worldly disasters, They happen, Sometimes because of the horrible choices other people choose to make, And sometimes they must happen to cause something very decisive to happen. In such disasters you search for God and Jesus to help comfort you and show you the way. If you do not allow him into your life he will not come into it. As i said before he allows you to do whatever you want on HIS world. So if you don't invite him in the door he wont come in, He isn't going to bust the door down and make you listen or do things. But if you let him he will show you the way, If you are reluctant or doing so half heartedly it will not work. And as to why you should choose christianity over anything else from the outside? The only one that i can legitmately give you is the comfirmed historical character that claimed this religion his own and lived by it ran with it preached it and suffered a horrible death on a cross to save us all. You can look into the resurrection all you want but the only "solid" proof for you guys is his body missing. Which many claims can be made about why from any atheist. And even if for some reason you go into Islam you will still see Jesus as one of the greatest prophets and people in their history. When Mohammed acends to Heaven that is the last person he meets on the way there. Along a trail of prophets.

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!

Moderator Note

I've moved some conversation from this thread into here. Try keep it on topic and Superfusion, you'd do well to actually listen to modnotes in future.

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These are worldly disasters, They happen, Sometimes because of the horrible choices other people choose to make, And sometimes they must happen to cause something very decisive to happen.

No, God demanded these things happen, either you don't know your own bible or you are being dishonest.

In such disasters you search for God and Jesus to help comfort you and show you the way. If you do not allow him into your life he will not come into it. As i said before he allows you to do whatever you want on HIS world. So if you don't invite him in the door he wont come in, He isn't going to bust the door down and make you listen or do things. But if you let him he will show you the way, If you are reluctant or doing so half heartedly it will not work. And as to why you should choose christianity over anything else from the outside?

This is just preaching and it is against the rules here.

The only one that i can legitmately give you is the comfirmed historical character that claimed this religion his own and lived by it ran with it preached it and suffered a horrible death on a cross to save us all. You can look into the resurrection all you want but the only "solid" proof for you guys is his body missing. Which many claims can be made about why from any atheist. And even if for some reason you go into Islam you will still see Jesus as one of the greatest prophets and people in their history. When Mohammed acends to Heaven that is the last person he meets on the way there. Along a trail of prophets.

Again, even if Jesus was real, and there is no evidence he was other than stories written decades if not centuries after his supposed death, he still supported slavery and the laws of the old testament.

Why is god so shy these days? Why hasn't the sun been stopped in the sky to aid people who were fighting on his side? Why no miracles? And why is your religion better than any other? There are other religions than the ones based on Abraham. Why is Krishna not god, come on man do you really think there are no other holy books about completely different gods or pantheons of gods? Why is yours true and theirs are not? The people who worship those gods have just as much faith as you do in yours and why is your interpretation of your own god any better than anyone else's?

Oh yes, one... well two more things, why did Jesus lie about his second coming and people have thought they were in the end times since the beginning, it's a common delusion of the religious fanatics?

Edited by Moontanman
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No, God demanded these things happen, either you don't know your own bible or you are being dishonest.

This is just preaching and it is against the rules here.

Again, even if Jesus was real, and there is no evidence he was other than stories written decades if not centuries after his supposed death, he still supported slavery and the laws of the old testament.

Why is god so shy these days? Why hasn't the sun been stopped in the sky to aid people who were fighting on his side? Why no miracles? And why is your religion better than any other? There are other religions than the ones based on Abraham. Why is Krishna not god, come on man do you really think there are no other holy books about completely different gods or pantheons of gods? Why is yours true and theirs are not? The people who worship those gods have just as much faith as you do in yours and why is your interpretation of your own god any better than anyone else's?

Oh yes, one... well two more things, why did Jesus lie about his second coming and people have thought they were in the end times since the beginning, it's a common delusion of the religious fanatics?

I honestly don't know where the illusion came from that we are living in the end times. To keep the faith of weaker christians? I'm not gonna look out the window waiting for the apocalypse to happen. Nor am i scared of it. We can only know when it will happen when it actually happens. As for him causing such events he indeed does cause them. But this is not for us to ask. As i intended to say last night there is a dig.

The only proof atheist have that god does not exist is that there is no proof that he does.

And the only "solid" proof christians have that he does is that the only existing proof he does not is the lack of proof that he does.

(FYI) If the conversation continues ill move it to another thread moderator iodine.

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I honestly don't know where the illusion came from that we are living in the end times. To keep the faith of weaker christians? I'm not gonna look out the window waiting for the apocalypse to happen. Nor am i scared of it. We can only know when it will happen when it actually happens. As for him causing such events he indeed does cause them. But this is not for us to ask. As i intended to say last night there is a dig.

The only proof atheist have that god does not exist is that there is no proof that he does.

And the only "solid" proof christians have that he does is that the only existing proof he does not is the lack of proof that he does.

(FYI) If the conversation continues ill move it to another thread moderator iodine.

First of all, lack of proof of god is not proof of gods existence anymore than lack of proof of the existence of centaurs means there are centaurs, in the lack of any evidence of centaurs the only reasonable way to go is there are no centaurs or unicorns which the bible does say exist btw.

My lack of proof just means i see no reason to believe in a god or gods and lack of positive proof the default position is there are no gods. Evidence would change my mind but telling me i have to have faith is a cop out and again why is your god real and all the others are not?

And why did Jesus lie?

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First of all, lack of proof of god is not proof of gods existence anymore than lack of proof of the existence of centaurs means there are centaurs, in the lack of any evidence of centaurs the only reasonable way to go is there are no centaurs or unicorns which the bible does say exist btw.

My lack of proof just means i see no reason to believe in a god or gods and lack of positive proof the default position is there are no gods. Evidence would change my mind but telling me i have to have faith is a cop out and again why is your god real and all the others are not?

And why did Jesus lie?

Mistake, This is not the same case as centaurs, centaurs are worldly. God is something you cannot see. Centaurs are visible. Centaurs live in the world. God lives in heaven. Do we live in heaven? No. You cannot make a worldly comparison to something supernatural. In the case of lack of proof, It pulls both ways. It does you no more a service then it does us.

Jesus died as punishment for all of our sins. Our future ones and our past ones. When you die you are again baptized in the holy spirit, Which really clenses your soul and makes you capable to be in heaven forever and shed your sins. Based on what i know someone that makes the trip to hell drowns in them forever. But i cannot tell you who goes to hell and who does not and why. Not my choice.

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Mistake, This is not the same case as centaurs, centaurs are worldly. God is something you cannot see. Centaurs are visible. Centaurs live in the world. God lives in heaven. Do we live in heaven? No. You cannot make a worldly comparison to something supernatural. In the case of lack of proof, It pulls both ways. It does you no more a service then it does us.

Superfusion, by now you must know that to make a positive assertion you must back it up with evidence, not baseless claims, claims oh yeah, what happened to the unicorns? Noah's Ark is still out there twisting in the wind as well.

Jesus died as punishment for all of our sins. Our future ones and our past ones. When you die you are again baptized in the holy spirit, Which really clenses your soul and makes you capable to be in heaven forever and shed your sins. Based on what i know someone that makes the trip to hell drowns in them forever. But i cannot tell you who goes to hell and who does not and why. Not my choice.

Again, why did Jesus support slavery and why did he lie about his return? His stance on slavery was and is immoral and he lied about his return.

Edited by Moontanman
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Superfusion, by now you must know that to make a positive assertion you must back it up with evidence, not baseless claims, claims oh yeah, what happened to the unicorns? Noah's Ark is still out there twisting in the wind as well.

Again, why did Jesus support slavery and why did he lie about his return? His stance on slavery was and is immoral and he lied about his return.

He lied about his return? Can you please show me the evidence of such? Again, Unicorns are worldly, And my back up for my statement about their being no evidence doing the case of no God as much a service as it does us is based in common sense. If no evidence exist that he does exist. We can still say that no evidence exist that he does not. Because no evidence exist you cannot make a case in either direction and that is where faith plays.

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He lied about his return? Can you please show me the evidence of such?

Yes, in one of his last sermons he declared that he would return with in the life time of some of the people who were there listening to him. Please address the slavery issue...

Again, Unicorns are worldly, And my back up for my statement about their being no evidence doing the case of no God as much a service as it does us is based in common sense. If no evidence exist that he does exist. We can still say that no evidence exist that he does not. Because no evidence exist you cannot make a case in either direction and that is where faith plays.

Actually there is quite a bit of evidence he does not exist, it's called the Holy Bible...

You have also failed to address why your god, indeed your version of that god, is any more real than any other god or gods, people have faith in them as well....

Edited by Moontanman
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The slavery issue though i have never heard of it i guess if you say so it existed. And he did not say that he would return during the lifetime of his disciples. You either heard incorrectly or such is a lie. You can find that in the New Testament for yourself. Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Which tells me that your slavery information may also be invalid.

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He lied about his return? Can you please show me the evidence of such? Again, Unicorns are worldly, And my back up for my statement about their being no evidence doing the case of no God as much a service as it does us is based in common sense. If no evidence exist that he does exist. We can still say that no evidence exist that he does not. Because no evidence exist you cannot make a case in either direction and that is where faith plays.

But couldn't I just make up anything and then point out that you can't disprove it? Are all ideas that can't be falsified valid? Of course not. Prove that Zeus doesn't exist. You can't. So is the Zeus hypothesis automatically worthy of consideration? He has ancient documents that talk about him just like Jesus or Yahweh.

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But couldn't I just make up anything and then point out that you can't disprove it? Are all ideas that can't be falsified valid? Of course not. Prove that Zeus doesn't exist. You can't. So is the Zeus hypothesis automatically worthy of consideration? He has ancient documents that talk about him just like Jesus or Yahweh.

Correct, Just because it cant be falsified it is not valid, The point is that it cannot be falsified. The difference in the writings and records of Zeus are that they are much older and less reliable because they were the only civilization in the area keeping records in the early days of zeus.

In the end this conversation will end nowhere so lets just stop it now. Because of the dig i mentioned before and lets move on to something else for now.

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I suggest you watch this series of videos before you dismiss the ideas here.

The slavery issue though i have never heard of it i guess if you say so it existed. And he did not say that he would return during the lifetime of his disciples. You either heard incorrectly or such is a lie. You can find that in the New Testament for yourself. Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Which tells me that your slavery information may also be invalid.

I have to go superfusion but I will show you the scriptures that say those things when i get back this evening unless some others feel the need to do so... It is truly sad that believers do not even know their own holy books...

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Ok i watched through part 2. This does not change my stance. btw, Even if i was managed to believe that God does not exist the values in the bible are still treasure and worth living by.

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Ok i watched through part 2. This does not change my stance. btw, Even if i was managed to believe that God does not exist the values in the bible are still treasure and worth living by.

I didn't figure you would watch the entire thing, it can be a problem to see your belief system gutted by reasonably well supported charges of plagiarism. To be honest it bothered me quite a bit, even if I didn't hold a belief in the story of Jesus it was disturbing to find out it was probably plagiarized from earlier works of the Greeks.

I guess inside i still held out that at least the story of Jesus was original, and at least worth following due to the moral value of the mans teachings. I'm not being condescending, it bothered me quite a bit, Jesus and the new testament was the last part of my faith to go and it was difficult to let go of and even though I had left it behind left long ago this was difficult to watch, maybe because I had at one time believed it so deeply.

But after a long day of guiding some one around the edges of the green swamp so they could take pictures of the wonders of that ecosystem and picking up several ticks, eeewww, here is the promised passages from the new testament that show Jesus lied and supported slavery.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Jesus’ Predictions:

1) Jesus falsely prophesies DIRECTLY to the high priest (Caiphas) that he would live to see his second coming. Jesus uses the term “coming on the clouds of heaven”. This clearly negates the “coming” as the resurrection but as a return to the earth on CLOUDS, not his return in human form from the dead. Matthew 26:64 & Mark 14:62.

"But I tell you: From now on you will see 'the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming on the clouds of heaven.'" (Matthew 26:64 NAB)

Then Jesus answered, "I am; and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" (Mark 14:62 NAB)

2) Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Matthew 23:36 & 24:34

Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36 NAB)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

3) YET AGAIN, Jesus claims those standing RIGHT BEFORE HIM shall see the Armageddon. Matthew 16:28 “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Don’t let Christians lie to you and claim Jesus was referring to his modern day believers. The words “some standing HERE will not taste death” clearly refutes such nonsense. Obviously the people he was speaking to died, and curiously Jesus STILL isn’t here to claim his kingdom.

4) Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners’ lifetimes.

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31 NAB)

He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1 NAB)

5) Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God.

"Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27 NAB)

6) Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. (John 21:22)

7) Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, wars, stars, etc.) will occur within the lifetime of his listeners. He purposely defines their generation and NOT a future one. Considering that NONE of those signs took place during the resurrection and that he uses the term of “Heaven and earth shall pass away”, Clearly Jesus is prophesizing that nearly 2,000 years ago Armageddon SHOULD have occurred. Luke 21:25-33

"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand." He taught them a lesson. "Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Luke 21:25-33 NAB)

[Editor's note: Matthew 10:23 also has Jesus telling his disciples that the second coming will occur before the disciples finish preaching in Israel: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23 NAB)]

Also i have asked you why your version of Christianity is better than anyone else's and why your god is the only god and no the bible is not the oldest, the best, or best preserved or even the most complex holy book of the ancients.

Unless you can show some reason why your version of the christian god and why the christian god is more likely to be true than any other your argument just becomes your personal opinion, not shared by many or any better than anyone else's and while you are indeed entitled to your beliefs and your opinions about them you are not entitled to your own reality...

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The slavery issue though i have never heard of it i guess if you say so it existed. And he did not say that he would return during the lifetime of his disciples. You either heard incorrectly or such is a lie. You can find that in the New Testament for yourself. Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Which tells me that your slavery information may also be invalid.

I have shown that I did not lie nor did I quote some one else who had lied and I also showed the slavery information was not invalid. How about addressing this issue instead of insinuating I am giving false information...

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You either heard incorrectly or such is a lie.

!

Moderator Note

If you're going to call someone a liar on this forum, you need to back that up with evidence or retract the statement and apologize. Intellectual integrity demands no less. Please address this issue before moving on to something else, and be careful with accusations in the future.

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