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The dials are so finely tuned.

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The energy of the universe must originate from somewhere.

Then where did THAT somewhere originate? It's turtles all the way down...

The dials are so finely tuned.

This is often described as the "fine-tuning argument," and is basically crap.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_design#Argument_from_fine_tuning

the fine-tuning argument can also be countered due to the sheer size of the universe; with one hundred billion stars in the galaxy, and as many galaxies in the universe, even a minuscule chance of life arising makes it extremely likely that it will occur somewhere. Moreover, no matter how unlikely an event is, once it occurs, the probability of it having happened is 1.

Fine-tuning arguments based on the physical constants are even easier to refute. The delicate balance of, for example, the tri-alpha fusion which created all the carbon in our bodies relies on the temperature and pressure of stars being exactly right for this form of fusion. However, the pressure and temperature of the interior of a star changes depending on whether or not fusion is occurring. Similar links between other physical constants are likely and can explain their apparently delicate balance.

The argument from fine tuning also fails for the following reasons:

• It bifurcates the laws of physics into constants and the equations into which those constants are placed. It asks us to consider what would happen were the constants changed but the equations stayed the same. But what if we permitted the equations to change also? Then we must admit we have no idea. Even if it is clear that the current equations with different constants cannot produce life, completely different equations (and constants) might still be life-producing. We do not know enough about mathematical physics to say, and may well never. This bifurcation of the laws of physics into constants and equations is more likely an artifact of the human mind's attempt to understand the cosmos than a fundamental property of reality itself
• The argument wants us to conclude that it is highely unlikely that a life-producing set of physical constants could be arrived at by chance. But, how do we ascribe probabilities to sets of possible physical constants? Are they all supposed to be equally likely? Or are some more likely than others? Given these constants are real numbers, and therefore there are infinitely many possible values of them, how does one pick an element at random from an infinite set? What is the probability of picking one such element? And it gets even worse if we reject the bifurcation of the laws of physics into constants and equations -- what is the probability of a particular equation being part of the laws of physics? To speak of probabilities here seems to be just abusing the concept of probability in a situation in which it is meaningless.

Now, if we assume some kind of multiverse theory, then speaking of probabilities of physical constants having certain values, or of certain equations being part of the laws of physics, might have some meaning -- we could look to the distribution of those constant values or laws in different universes across the multiverse to define their probability. But, supporters of the argument from fine-tuning cannot turn to these considerations to make their argument coherent, since if there is such a multiverse then there is no need for the God they are seeking to prove either.

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1326049670[/url]' post='649671']

Then where did THAT somewhere originate? It's turtles all the way down...

This is often described as the "fine-tuning argument," and is basically crap.

http://rationalwiki....rom_fine_tuning

Haha, just because I somewhat vaguely say the "dials are finely tuned" doesn't mean I'm alluding to any particular concept... I would appreciate it if you didn't hinder my argument by defamation with theories I never associated with my beliefs, thanks.

by the dials being finely tuned i simply meant EG the atomic structure, the constants, the physical laws, the unwavering forces that allow material form. the canvas that allows the chance of life occurring is specific in itself, empty space itself is not nothing.

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Haha, just because I somewhat vaguely say the "dials are finely tuned" doesn't mean I'm alluding to any particular concept... I would appreciate it if you didn't hinder my argument by defamation with theories I never associated with my beliefs, thanks.

by the dials being finely tuned i simply meant EG the atomic structure, the constants, the physical laws, the unwavering forces that allow material form. the canvas that allows the chance of life occurring is specific in itself

Except, you may not realize it, but that's exactly the concept you're talking about.

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yeah but what if chance is a property of the universe and not the reason for it happening... i just dont understand how there couldnt be an infinite force responsible... a creator. this place is so weird and i want to think ill see all of you again.

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yeah but what if chance is a property of the universe and not the reason for it happening... i just dont understand how there couldnt be an infinite force responsible... a creator. this place is so weird and i want to think ill see all of you again.

There may well be a reason the universe happened but a naturalistic reason much like why galaxies and stars form is more probable than an intelligent creator, why does it have to be a intelligent being that looks like a human male? The multidimensional bulk space is theorized to contain many such branes, i read an article that asserted it could contain many things other than branes, it's really not, at this time at least, any better than the big bang theory but there are potential natural ways what we can think of to cause what we see as the the universe to come into being naturally, no old man in the sky needed. Why add an extra level of complexity? I understand the idea that our lives are finite and will come to an end is unsatisfying in many ways but making something up to make you feel better is hardly the way to go.... Eternity is neatly divided into three parts, before i existed, while I existed, and after i exist, to me that is better than possibly being tortured for an eternity for not believing something that there is no evidence for what so ever....

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Sometimes I really believe that I unknowingly constructed my spiritual beliefs to cope with the death of those close to me and to avoid the reality that I'll never see them again. But what if I'm wrong?

As humanity evolves, we get more sympathetic towards one another & gain better morals, don't we? Is that coincidence? Or is it evidence that IF there is a God, or an infinite consciousness, or superior aliens.... that whatever genius work was done that far surpasses our ability, that it's also more forgiving and merciful than us? Us puny humans have such love for one another that is constantly growing, so much in just a tiny flicker of the timeline of just our planet... how couldn't anything superior to us have greater understanding? So if there is a "God", eternal punishment is the biggest pile of shit I've ever heard of.... not one tiny cell in my body believes it. I'm not saying there is a God, but either way, burning in a pit forever is ridiculous. Punishment for naivety wouldn't be plausible.

Edited by Appolinaria
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Sometimes I really believe that I unknowingly constructed my spiritual beliefs to cope with the death of those close to me and to avoid the reality that I'll never see them again. But what if I'm wrong?

As humanity evolves, we get more sympathetic towards one another & gain better morals, don't we? Is that coincidence? Or is it evidence that IF there is a God, or an infinite consciousness, or superior aliens.... that whatever genius work was done that far surpasses our ability, that it's also more forgiving and merciful than us? Us puny humans have such love for one another that is constantly growing, so much in just a tiny flicker of the timeline of just our planet... how couldn't anything superior to us have greater understanding?

Most religions require that you worship a particular god to have any chance of an after life. The first thing you have to determine is "which god is real", also just believing there must be a higher power does not suggest that there is any life after death... God does not necessarily equal an after life..... If there is a god it might get quite a laugh at us thinking it is going to take care of us after we die... Then again maybe our souls are what god eats and the god who gets the most worship gets the most souls, possibly all gods are or were real but most died after they were starved because their believers stopped feeding them....

So if there is a "God", eternal punishment is the biggest pile of shit I've ever heard of.... not one tiny cell in my body believes it. I'm not saying there is a God, but either way, burning in a pit forever is ridiculous. Punishment for naivety wouldn't be plausible.

Not plausible? Remember we are talking about beings whose morals are what they want then to be and ordering a city of people who do not believe killed to the last man woman and child... well not the female children.... they were passed out to the solders for their pleasure, but he demanded that infants be dashed to the ground as well, not plausible? If we are really dealing with a being that qualifies as god there is no way to predict what it will or will not do....

Edited by Moontanman
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Yes but anything powerful enough to create our universe would not be capable of such things, IMO... It's terribly easy to brainwash a human, a creator would understand their creation completely, why would they be bothered by such an easy sin to commit?

We have two options;

No afterlife. Then when we die, we will just seep into nothing... our brain will shut off and that's it. Not a bad option.

Afterlife. If our "soul" isn't eternal and can be completely destroyed, wiped from the universe- then I don't understand how we can simultaneously exist and not exist since time seems to be only an illusion.

I think it's terrible that a strange book is taken so literally and seriously as to scare people away from believing in a creator altogether, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made intentionally to lead us astray. Obviously as we scientifically grow, we will err from & scoff at religion because of the ridiculous impression we have of it... All of the stories were jumbled together and claimed to be important, and once we see the stories are bizarre we automatically think a higher power is garbage, too.. but that's naive. Instead of blending the logic of our universe with faith/spirituality, we just draw the gap between the two even larger, when they can actually coexist, are in and of the same, and fuel each other at their root.

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Yes but anything powerful enough to create our universe would not be capable of such things, IMO...

I can't see why you would assert such a thing considering how much real suffering there is in the world, it not only demanded such horrendous things in the past it does nothing to prevent them in the present, I mean really, would a heads up before a tsunami or an earth quake really be too much to ask?

It's terribly easy to brainwash a human, a creator would understand their creation completely, why would they be bothered by such an easy sin to commit?

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

We have two options;

No afterlife. Then when we die, we will just seep into nothing... our brain will shut off and that's it. Not a bad option.

Afterlife.

Yes but that doesn't make each equally possible.

Afterlife. If our "soul" isn't eternal and can be completely destroyed, wiped from the universe- then I don't understand how we can simultaneously exist and not exist since time seems to be only an illusion.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Time is an illusion? Says who?

I think it's terrible that a strange book is taken so literally and seriously as to scare people away from believing in a creator altogether, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made intentionally to lead us astray. Obviously as we scientifically grow, we will err from & scoff at religion because of the ridiculous impression we have of it... All of the stories were jumbled together and claimed to be important, and once we see the stories are bizarre we automatically think a higher power is garbage, too.. but that's naive. Instead of blending the logic of our universe with faith/spirituality, we just draw the gap between the two even larger, when they can actually coexist, are in and of the same, and fuel each other at their root.

In my Opinion believing in a higher power is naive, not the other way around, there is no evidence of any higher power, all we have is some people claiming to "just know" or by "faith"... i think that's... well naive doesn't quite cover it. Think about it, what has god done for us? What useful knowledge has god given us? Antibiotics...no. Pain killers...no. Technology...no. All he does is make promises that cannot be confirmed through his spokesmen who always need money and not just to give to the poor, no they need huge fantastically expensive structures to worship in and mansions and expensive cars the spokesmen need.

Now i know not all religious people do that but even though some religions have acolytes who vow personal poverty the churches are still huge and fantastically expensive but more importantly why does an all powerful being need my hard earned dollars? Why can't he just make gold appear in the churches that worship the correct god the correct way and everyone would know he is not only real but those people were worshiping the correct way.

I see no reason to assume a deity, in fact the idea of it is is quite disturbing considering what we have to choose from in the deity category...

Edited by Moontanman
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I can't see why you would assert such a thing considering how much real suffering there is in the world, it not only demanded such horrendous things in the past it does nothing to prevent them in the present, I mean really, would a heads up before a tsunami or an earth quake really be too much to ask?

Yes, there is tremendous suffering and I'm probably way too fortunate to even speak about these things. But technically, we could settle away from fault lines and especially coastlines near fault lines...

I think we create much of our own suffering.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

What I meant was to be brainwashed by an upbringing, tricked into doing malicious things, fooled into taking any kind of belief to an extreme... humans are very susceptible to their environment, easily manipulated. A human that is misled from whatever the "truth" is would probably not be punished by "God" for these reasons. There would be no sin to be punished for, only predictable human error that can be corrected through experience.

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Religion is a means of control:

Without it how many suicide bombers do you think we would have seen?

Belief in god is a cop out:

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All of you make valuable argument, it's a safe assumption that all of you atheist have not taken time to study the Bible and it's contents will full attention.

<...>

Just because you don't have complete control over life itself, doesn't mean you have to be first to put down beliefs just because you don't understand them.

I'm fairly sure you're no longer around reading this, but just in case you are (or, for anyone else who happens on this thread), there are some really interesting areas where you can explore first hand why others have chosen a position of non-belief, rather often as a result of looking more closely at their holy books, teachings, and worldview.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/category/testimonial/

http://richarddawkins.net/letters/converts

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• 2 weeks later...

Would the world be that bad if:

Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honour thy father and thy mother

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Thou shalt not covet

I mean, really? If we followed these rules exactly, this would be a perfect world.

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I like the nonstampcollector too. those first five commandments seem a little bit superfluous to me.... 7 and 10 are bit iffy too...

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Most religions require that you worship a particular god to have any chance of an after life. The first thing you have to determine is "which god is real", also just believing there must be a higher power does not suggest that there is any life after death... God does not necessarily equal an after life..... If there is a god it might get quite a laugh at us thinking it is going to take care of us after we die... Then again maybe our souls are what god eats and the god who gets the most worship gets the most souls, possibly all gods are or were real but most died after they were starved because their believers stopped feeding them....

I think you would have to establish the "Most" claim with some actual evidence that demonstrates that you understand the tenets of any religion, let alone "most" religions. I would never claim to know the tenets of most religions, but even on my limited exposures to various religions your statement doesn't stand.

In fact, most religions I have studied believe we are all praying to the same God, and most even believe in the righteous path of other faiths. Only in the minority of religions (some Fundamentalist branches of Christianity and Islam) do they believe they are the only path to salvation.

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In fact, most religions I have studied believe we are all praying to the same God, and most even believe in the righteous path of other faiths. Only in the minority of religions (some Fundamentalist branches of Christianity and Islam) do they believe they are the only path to salvation.

Wait, you're suggesting, for example, that most Christians believe there is a righteous path to salvation without accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior (i.e. being of another religion such as Judaism, Mormonism, Islam, etc)? Although anecdotal, my experience with Christianity and Christians strongly suggests the exact opposite as does the bible:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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Wait, you're suggesting, for example, that most Christians believe there is a righteous path to salvation without accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior (i.e. being of another religion such as Judaism, Mormonism, Islam, etc)? Although anecdotal, my experience with Christianity and Christians strongly suggests the exact opposite as does the bible:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Yes, I am suggesting that. They all base this core belief on two repeated articles of faith in the Bible:

We all know God's word instinctively through our conscience. God's word is "written on our heart"

Romans 2:12-15 - 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Jesus is God's word made flesh.

John 1:10-14 -10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent,c nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So by this we all know God's word without needing to be told, and Jesus is God's word, so we know, by Biblical teachings, Jesus without ever being told of him.

As I said, the real difference in the various sects of Christianity is in each belief that they have the best way of adhering to God's word that you already have inside you. They all simply believe that it is far less likely that you will follow the righteous path without them.

It's tricky, I know, but you have to understand who Jesus was and what he stood for within the Bible to get the real picture that the scripture is painting. Jesus was the Son of God, but also his law personified. As such Jesus was always with mankind, but not as a human. Also, flowing from that same argument, Jesus is with us still in the form of God's Law which is, and has always been, written on all people's hearts in the form of their conscience and understanding of good.

Edit: This is also a bit confusing because many people (especially non-believers) who attempt to make sense of the Bible often mistake God's laws to mankind, the finite beings that we are, as some cosmic directive as well. But it's not. God's Law as known to us is simply the part God requires us to play in the bigger picture, whatever that is. As such, God is not bound by these same finite limitations; not because he is unjust, but because he is infinite.

Edited by jryan
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Yes, I am suggesting that. They all base this core belief on two repeated articles of faith in the Bible:

I remain incredulous to the claim that most Christians believe that you can achieve heaven through a religion other than Christianity. It is the central claim that it can be only achieved through belief in the divinity of Jesus of every single evangelist and piece of evangelistic propaganda I've ever encountered. I'm happy to be proven wrong by evidence to the contrary.

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I remain incredulous to the claim that most Christians believe that you can achieve heaven through a religion other than Christianity. It is the central claim that it can be only achieved through belief in the divinity of Jesus of every single evangelist and piece of evangelistic propaganda I've ever encountered. I'm happy to be proven wrong by evidence to the contrary.

Whether you are incredulous or not doesn't change things. I have already shown in Biblical scripture that the knowledge of good and the following of your good conscience is, by scripture, an intrinsic belief in God and God's Law. Jesus is God's word made flesh and God's word is written on everyone's heart as their conscience. As such you can interchange God, "Jesus", God's Word" and "Good Conscience" and never lose the meaning.

Most Christian religion isn't about establishing the goal or the rules, those have been literally set in stone since Moses, it's about how to follow the rules and achieve the goal of salvation successfully.

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I think you would have to establish the "Most" claim with some actual evidence.

You claim most Christians believe something - evidence it.

Showing a supposed basis for a claim is not evidence of the claim.

Edited by Arete
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You claim most Christians believe something - evidence it.

Showing a supposed basis for a claim is not evidence of the claim.

So you can make the contrary claim without evidence and yet you demand that I provide evidence that your non-evidence statement is not true? I've provided you the scripture which puts your scriptural evidence in context.

Well, I will offer the Catholic Catechism on the subject first:

Lumen Gentium #16:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

So there is the single largest denomination in the Christian faith saying what I have just told you. Given that it also represents just barely more than 50% of all Christians worldwide it would also qualify as "most".

Lumen Gentium #15, by the way, professes the same extension of salvation to other Christian denominations. In all cases the Catholic faiths teaches that an adherence to God's law and the rejection of evil influence binds you to the Church through the Holy Spirit and is the only truly essential requisite for salvation.

In fact, if you have another Christian denomination to offer that shows your point please provide it, but it is my finding over the years that any seeming difference between the Catholic stand and other Christian religious doctrine is predicated not on the practical nature of this teaching, but on differing beliefs in the existence of free will. When A Christian denomination doesn't believe in free will (Bible Churches, for example) you can say the very same thing the Catholic Church does while superficially appear to be saying the opposite.

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So you can make the contrary claim without evidence and yet you demand that I provide evidence that your non-evidence statement is not true? I've provided you the scripture which puts your scriptural evidence in context.

Yours is the positive assertion.

There's plenty of evidence of Christians who do believe that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior to enter Heaven. I quite honestly find it absurd that you're claiming the contrary.

"Classical evangelical doctrine holds that salvation comes only through faith in Jesus Christ, and that those without such faith will be condemned to hell. A number of texts are typically cited in support of this position." http://www.bethinkin...o-to-heaven.htm

"Historically Rome taught that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church; therefore Muslims, like other non-Catholics, could not be saved unless they convert to the Catholic religion." http://www.justforca...cs.org/a135.htm

"With all respect due, what a Muslim believes is insufficient to take them to Heaven. This is Bible truth." http://forums.ourchu...topic.php?p=740

"Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all them that obeys him (Hebrews 5:8-9), but those folks do not obey him, hence they will not be saved in their present station. If, however, they should learn of Christ, believe and obey him then they too could be saved." http://www.firstcenturychristian.com/answers/answers_041.htm

"So it is those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior who join God in heaven." http://www.missiontoamerica.org/letters/other-religions/muslims-01.html

Edited by Arete
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Yours is the positive assertion.

There's plenty of evidence of Christians who do believe that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior to enter Heaven. I quite honestly find it absurd that you're claiming the contrary.

"Classical evangelical doctrine holds that salvation comes only through faith in Jesus Christ, and that those without such faith will be condemned to hell. A number of texts are typically cited in support of this position." http://www.bethinkin...o-to-heaven.htm

"Historically Rome taught that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church; therefore Muslims, like other non-Catholics, could not be saved unless they convert to the Catholic religion." http://www.justforca...cs.org/a135.htm

"With all respect due, what a Muslim believes is insufficient to take them to Heaven. This is Bible truth." http://forums.ourchu...topic.php?p=740

"Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all them that obeys him (Hebrews 5:8-9), but those folks do not obey him, hence they will not be saved in their present station. If, however, they should learn of Christ, believe and obey him then they too could be saved." http://www.firstcenturychristian.com/answers/answers_041.htm

"So it is those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior who join God in heaven." http://www.missiontoamerica.org/letters/other-religions/muslims-01.html

I have just linked you to the Catholic Catechism view on Salvation so an argument of what that Church might have once believed is immaterial. If you wish to counter this then show where my quote is not from the Catholic Catechism or that it doesn't say what I have already stated. Showing me that some third party says that the Catholic church believes otherwise isn't compelling in the slightest as the authoritative word on the Roman Catholic faith in the Catholic Catechism, not some blogger at "Bigthinking.org".

Second, as I have already pointed out through scripture, unless spelled out otherwise the demand by some faiths that a belief in Jesus is mandatory to salvation is both right and is in semantic agreement with my statement and with the Catholic Catechism given the interchangeable aspect of "Jesus", "God's Law" and "individual conscience" due to the very scripture the rationale is drawn from.

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For those who have not understood the word of God, what its purpose is or where it is supposed to lead us. God sent his perfected Son Jesus Christ to explain it to us. The difficulty Jesus had was putting it into words we could understand at the time.

The answer is much simpler than people realize.

We all are sons and daughters of God, though few of us know this.

See John chapter 10 verses 32-36

32. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?''

33. The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.''

34. Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, "You are gods'' '?

35. "If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

36. "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?

Confirmed by:

Romans chapter 8 verse 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

So how do we become effective and useful Sons of God being led by the Spirit:

First we ask the question "who and what is God and his law?". This is the question that is the foundation of all things relating to God the Father. If you yourself don't know the Father, how can you teach and reveal him to others. This is the reason for the birth of Jesus, the one who could reveal God the Father to us. The lack of sin in Jesus was, God knew Jesus could see the Father and that Jesus devoted his whole being to revealing God the Father to the world.

This revealing of God to the world is the will of the the Father from the beginning.

John chapter 4 verses 23-24

23. "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

24. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.''

John chapter 5 verse 30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John chapter 6 verses 39-41

39. "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40. "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.''

41. The Jews then murmured against Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven.''

So what is spirit and truth?

God is the electromagnetic power that drives the Cosmos and powers every atom.

John chapter 8 verses 12-14

12. Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.''

13. The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.''

14. Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.

Jesus confirms this another way:

John chapter 14 verses 10-11

10. "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

11. "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

For our benefit we need to understand where we came from before we were born and where we go to when we leave here.

We are spirit beings in that we are born from God's almighty power and in the end we return to where we came from (God's almighty power). As Jesus said "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going".

We heap up for ourselves many false ideas and misinterpretations but it is so simple in the end.

As God laws power the cosmos, these laws are the inheritance gift of the living God to his children. What more can God the Father give his children than the laws of life itself. Physicists assume space is empty and all energy is stored in solid matter. Blissfully unaware of the fluid power that drives the living cosmos, the power that is our God.

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