Sayonara Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I don't really see that I have discounted anything of 5614's post which you might call "farfetched". I have simply pointed out the disparity between the original question, and what he is saying. What do you mean by "real AI"? Could it perhaps be a learning system that is capable of becoming more intelligent than us? Wow, you really disagreed with me there. I haven't at any point said it will be easy. What I am suggesting is that it is pretty much inevitable, given the current trends in the technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProphet Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Hmmm, Prabably my fault since im most shurely isn't as good in english as you Sayonara. I must have misinterpeted you! Or well i did i see.. I'm totally with you on the Inevitable part there! And it's likewise inevitable that we'll be runing into some sort of problems with this AI in the future.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aommaster Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Well, I chose yes, but not within my lifetime. People are working on it, and so far, they have created something as intelligent as a dishwasher! It runs on electricity on a grid. When part of the grid is switched off, and if the robot is in there, it would move with a reserve power to look for an area that has electricity. That was the smartest 'thing' they have made yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skye Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 One thing which seems to be overlooked is that it takes decades for a person to mature. It shouldn't be surprising that a program that's given (say) a year of to learn is no smarter than a baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 That was the smartest 'thing' they have made yet! By "they" I assume you mean that particular group of researchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aommaster Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Well, yes. But, this was the smartest thing ALL the groups of researchers have made. No other group made something more intelligent than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Well, yes. But, this was the smartest thing ALL the groups of researchers have made. No other group made something more intelligent than that! According to who? Personally, I can think of many machines that are smarter than a dishwasher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 ok, so what you are saying, sayonara, is that i was not necesarily answering the original question, but other than that, agreeably, it would be complicated... you also say it is inevitable that it happens eventually, i must agree with you on that point, despite the problems which i pointed out earlier: however, i have a habit of pointing out the other side of the argument, i call it a skill! but i will occasionaly argue against what i think, to gain a better understanding of it! [it does actually work!] so what i say is that: as my dad likes to tell me on hundreds of occasions: over the last hundred years, technology and science has improved vastley, beyond all scientist wildest dreams: so my question is:- sure it has inreased vastly, but will it keep that trend, just because the last hundred years has seen science vastly improved, doesnt mean that the next 100 yrs will be the same... does it? if you think of a graph, surely it must level off somewhere, maybe the next 100 yrs will see relatively little improvements! who knows? while this may seem of the subject, by answering this question, we are also working out whether of not it is "inevitable" that AI is created, or formed, or wtvr you wanna call it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 We are approaching the lower limit in transistor size (using current methods) which will slow the rate at which we can develop faster computing devices. However circuit-board-free motherboards are being developed using chips etc that directly influence adjacent components, which may lead to a short term fix. There ought to be a recent article about that in the slashdot hardware section - I think it was Apple or Sun or someone developing it. We are also rapidly approaching "viability thresholds" in the fields of computation with light, and quantum computing. These will allow huge leaps forward (and will probably become mainstream in that order). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aommaster Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 According to who? Personally' date=' I can think of many machines that are smarter than a dishwasher.[/quote'] Well, I saw it on a program all about AI. I am now starting to think that the dishwasher part was a joke. But yes, the fact about the robots searching for an energy source isn't. I saw it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 We are also rapidly approaching "viability thresholds" in the fields of computation with light, and quantum computing. These will allow huge leaps forward (and will probably become mainstream in that order). YES, agreed, computers will soon have a massive leap, although "soon" might be in 50 yrs or something! fibre optics are already a big thing, for major networks! eventually the internet [the biggest network in the world] will run on fibre optics, which works at the speed of light, quantum computing will take a bit longer, but will be even more powerful. additionally, if quantum entaglement, and quantum teleportation, can be used in computers to instantly transfer data, that will be another "power up" for computers, while this may seem unreal, to people reading this thread, i promise you, it is already do-able, just in massive labs, costing loads and loads of money, once the size and cost is brought down, it will be realistic! so yes, computers will come a long way over the next 100 yrs! i suppose, and that inevitably will effect robots! and AI, so yes, maybe it is more realistic, just will take a long time! but more powerful computers will be the start! i suppose the only question left asking is: will people really want AI? there will be loads of protests probably! stupid ppl, i hate people who go on protests, why cant they just leave the opposition to do what they want? they normally protest about animal rights, which we need to test on, for our safety, and against nuclear power, which we need to advance our nations! soon they will protest about AI.......... i believe that this is also inevitable, plus the cost will be unthinkable, will it ever publicly take off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Well, I saw it on a program all about AI. I am now starting to think that the dishwasher part was a joke. But yes, the fact about the robots searching for an energy source isn't. I saw it! I don't think that searching for a power source is necessarily "intelligent" behaviour. It's probably based on a really simple nested logic loop. I'm sure the system used was intelligently designed, but that's not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 yes, i agree with sayonara, it sounds like a really simple program used inside a robot, just to make it look clever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Well, not necessarily just to make it look clever. I didn't mean to imply that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 what i meant is that, if someone made a program, which looked for a power source, remember you dont know whats been programed to the public, and you, it would look as though the program was thinking, looking fo "food", which seems like AI, which seems clever, but actually, it is just a simple program! thats what i meant, even if it not what you meant! [sayonara] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 The above is what I was originally talking about, but your previous "it sounds like a really simple program used inside a robot, just to make it look clever" seemed to imply deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicMX Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Actually it would be smarter than us because we respond to chemical reactions. And many other things, that makes us to be "unsmart" or disconcentrated, no one uses ever a 100% of concentration. but a machine would do, and with the proper programing as sayonara said, it would teach itself. then you have an AI. What i worry about, is that is we are going to be necesary to them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 oh yeah' date=' AI is inteligence, does something pre-programed count as AI, surely, [heres a turn round on my behalf'] surely AI MUST think for itself to be classified as AI, otherwise it wouldnt be inteligent! it would just be pre-programmed, in which case, we are no where near creating AI, sure we can pre-proram something, but can we actually create something with inteligence??? thats like saying: can we copy God, [or a massive fluke, depending on ur view of creation] and make life, inteligent life, AI????? of coarse you can copy God. If God exists, it is because he evolved. It will take us billions of years to copy God, but it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 of coarse you can copy God. If God exists, it is because he evolved. It will take us billions of years to copy God, but it could happen. if God exists, He could hardly have evolved, the whole concept of God is supernatural, NOT HUMAN, therefore he would not necesarily evolve, after all, He is all perfect, all powerful etc. therefore, He wouldnt need to change and evolve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 The amount of computing power has grown a hundred thousand fold since they were created but the area of artificial intelligence has barely moved an inch. The size of transistors, price of components, and the speed of the electronics increase the overall power and speed of the computer. However, the computing power is only one small facet of the problem with creating AI programs. If you brought back 1000 supercomputers from the year 2020 and gave them to the AI guys they still wouldn't know where to start. The sophistication of the software has increased over the years as well, but designing a program that can beat a man at chess is light-years away from designing a program that can create a game like chess. As incredible as the visuals of the graphics and the usefulness of the applications are, computer still do basically the same thing that they did when they were invented. They calculate numbers and select which numbers to calculate based on the input and then give a certain output based on the results. They can beat a man at chess because there is a limit on the amount of choices within a very limited environment. They calculate the best move based on the specific programming from the design team, which includes chess masters. The software is still limited to calculating numbers. They make all of their choices based on what is programmed in and never deviate. I don’t believe its possible to create a program capable of reproducing the human intelligence using a set of yes/no instructions and a few Boolean operators. The technology and knowledge that will enable us to make AI isn’t here yet and we are not even sure what it will look like. Things like quantum computers and entanglement sound promising but they are just sci-fi for now. The understanding of what intelligence is and how it works is the limiting factor. The knowledge that lays the groundwork for AI is likely to be found in a biology lab instead of a computer lab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 The technology and knowledge that will enable us to make AI isn’t here yet and we are not even sure what it will look like. The understanding of what intelligence is and how it works is the limiting factor. yes agreed, maybe it will come one day, but not for a while The technology and knowledge that will enable us to make AI isn’t here yet and we are not even sure what it will look like. yes, and no! as i have been saying all along, it is far too advanced for us yet, it is unrealisitc, however, due to others *ahem* i agreed that it is a possibility for the future, although after reading this post, i am swaying again, maybe it is a totaly unrealistic, impossible, possibility! i still voted 'never' on the pole, and stick with my answer, but maybe one day, it might be possible! Things like quantum computers and entanglement sound promising but they are just sci-fi for now. no, these are not sci-fi, those are the words of one who does not undertand them fully [soz]!, they are highly realistic! they are real and have been done and are being developed. there are just two problems with it! firstly, it costs too much to be done on a public scale, secondly, it takes up large amounts of space or room, too much to fit in a computer! additionally, they are newly discovered, so the reason for not much development, is that they are still relatively new! ________________________________ additional things such as fibre optics and light in computer have already been developed, i will soon be part of a small network, running on fibre optics! 100K! upgrade to 10K cables! im looking forward to it! it will be soo much faster! the reason the world is on fibre optics, is because of the cost, as with all things, the cost will eventually come down! and then fibre optics in computers will become pulicly popular! as i said earlier, one day, the World Wide Web, or internet, as most people know it, which is officially the worlds largest network! will one day run on fibre optics! and anyone who knows about internet speeds it now drooling, thinking of speed of light download rates! coz after all, fibre optics, light, works at the speed of light! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 no' date=' these are not sci-fi, those are the words of one who does not undertand them fully [/quote'] Just point me in the direction of the individual that fully understands quantum entanglement or the person who has built a quantum computer. There was a time when there were experts on the ether theory of the universe. Now most people believe it was all hogwash. Just because string theory, building quantum computers, and using entanglement to transfer information instantaneously are in fashion now does not mean they will all pan out. additional things such as fibre optics and light in computer have already been developed' date=' i will soon be part of a small network, running on fibre optics! 100K! upgrade to 10K cables! im looking forward to it! it will be soo much faster! [/quote'] cool! arrr *envious* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Just point me in the direction of the individual that fully understands quantum entanglement or the person who has built a quantum computer. there are people who have carried out quantume entaglement! they know! they've done it, theyd be offeneded by you!!!!!!!!! quantum entaglement: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4498&page=1&pp=20 and on that forum: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3811785.stm and although quantum computers are not on public sale, i believe they do exist, in labs, although i cant find a site to prove it, however you think that a 3.03GHz processor is powerfull, but theres a new computer which can handle at about 10GHz, but it needs a super-powerful cooling system which makes it unrealistic, but its stil there! just not public, just coz sumin isnt public, doesnt mean its not there! 10GHz processor: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=232&highlight=10ghz quantum computer do exist! trust me! Just because string theory, building quantum computers, and using entanglement to transfer information instantaneously are in fashion now does not mean they will all pan out. im not saying that they will, im saying that it is a possibility, a way forward! after all, thats what we were talking about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 if God exists, He could hardly have evolved, the whole concept of God is supernatural, NOT HUMAN, therefore he would not necesarily evolve, after all, He is all perfect, all powerful etc. therefore, He wouldnt need to change and evolve! maybe that's YOUR concept, it doesn't mean its the only possibility. And since it has no explanation as to how it happened, why would i be inclined to believe it? I guess this partly has to with my religion which believes that God was once a man descended of the God that created him. We are childeren of our God and have the potential to become Gods and Godesses (God is married. He doesn't mention his wife to protect profanation of her name). I know that sounds religiously preposterous, but it makes more sense than some faceless being who came from nowhere and created everything. God didn't start perfect, i dont see a problem with God having evolved. It ties the natural to the divine. We too have potential to evolve toward perfection----- evolution seems even more perfect a possibility than anything else, because only TRUE perfection will ultimately survive all other generations. True perfection will have to be able to truly master the nature of the universe. Scientifically you may doubt to what degree of mastery is possible, or if our descendants will survive destroying ourselves with war before we get anywhere near Godliness, but i have faith that somewhere in the universe a group of us will not go extinct. And theres no way to know until it either does or does not happen. I dont think that matters. We should focus on aiming our evolution, to the best of our abilities, toward the direction of life, love and peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 I know, I know. I read that article when you posted it before. Very interesting btw. What I'm saying is that that technology is a long way away from being used in computers or telephones. Also, just because they can do it does not mean they fully understand why. I know there are super fast supercomputers out there but if you hooked that supercomputer to your super fast fiber optics network and then hired the best programmers in the world you could not get one creative thought out of that computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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