Just a general observation - about Math

[Chriton]

I understand that this is a Science Forum but there will be many people like myself who will not be up to the Math and Science of some of the members.

 

Some of us will be asking questions, puting our point of view and disagreeing with some of your Theories.

Please allow the Questioners to partisipate in this Forum without disrespecting them.

 

I, myself am an Electronics Eningeer who is interested in Theoretical Physics and Partical Physics, among other things, so let me learn from your knowledge without being ridiculed for my lack of knowledge on some subjects.

We are not all Matheticians...Just Free Thinkers

[Phi for All]

Moderator Note: Moved from the Introduce Yourself thread.

 

 

I think you need to be a bit more thick-skinned when it comes to having your ideas critiqued. When someone asks you for the math to support an idea, they aren't ridiculing you, they're just asking for math. It may not be your strong point but having even a basic mathematical model of your concept goes a long way to proving your point. Math is the language of physics, and while you can work around it for a while, eventually people are going to ask for it.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Phi for All
punctuation

[ajb]

Please allow the Questioners to partisipate in this Forum without disrespecting them.

 

It is very sad when a thread degenerates into a series of personal attacks.

 

It works both ways. Often people who have little idea on how physics works in practice will attempt to ridicule those that do, or the physics itself. Most of it is just ignorance about what is required and then the anger that comes from this.

 

If you have some ideas about physics, but cannot formulate these in a language that the community can understand then you are likely to get short blunt replies. But please don't take this as a personal attack. Most of us would like you to digest the comments/suggestion and continue to think. Understanding why you are wrong goes a long way towards being right.

 

Best of luck.

[Chriton]

Moderator Note: Moved from the Introduce Yourself thread.

 

 

I think you need to be a bit more thick-skinned when it comes to having your ideas critiqued. When someone asks you for the math to support an idea, they aren't ridiculing you, they're just asking for math. It may not be your strong point but having even a basic mathematical model of your concept goes a long way to proving your point. Math is the language of physics, and while you can work around it for a while, eventually people are going to ask for it.

 

But Math is not always the answer...Perhaps writing theories down on paper or a blackboard might be how you understand how the Physical Universe works but geting the concept into your mind is more of a challenge, so you have to take all Ideas and Knowledge into consideration when trying to explain Existence.

I like Math and I have a good knowledge of Basic Phisics but I am also a Sceptic when it comes to Math explaining the Physical Universe...There is more than that..Yes! Mathematics has advanced our knowledge and has allowed us to try and explain things but so many have got it wrong and there are differing explanations of the Math.

I keep an open mind and do not accept all the Math.

I will still question the held theories of those that think they know all about Physics, even without the Math.

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

It is very sad when a thread degenerates into a series of personal attacks.

 

It works both ways. Often people who have little idea on how physics works in practice will attempt to ridicule those that do, or the physics itself. Most of it is just ignorance about what is required and then the anger that comes from this.

 

If you have some ideas about physics, but cannot formulate these in a language that the community can understand then you are likely to get short blunt replies. But please don't take this as a personal attack. Most of us would like you to digest the comments/suggestion and continue to think. Understanding why you are wrong goes a long way towards being right.

 

Best of luck.

 

Physics is just an understanding of the Physical universe we exist in, Mathematics is an Intregal part of trying to equate that to, and what and why we are, but it is not the "Holy Grail" .

Some people believe that we can solve the question or find an explanation through Math.

Many mathematical Theories have been wrong in the past and will continue to be wrong...Theories are just what they are "Theories" not proven.

I will continue to question all Mathematical Theories as Math is an Inexact Science and dose not answer the basic questions..It is all Hypothetical.

 

Lets face it...We are all trying to find an explination of existence so why do Scientists think that they are the only ones who have the answer.

[Phi for All]

But Math is not always the answer...Perhaps writing theories down on paper or a blackboard might be how you understand how the Physical Universe works but geting the concept into your mind is more of a challenge, so you have to take all Ideas and Knowledge into consideration when trying to explain Existence.

I like Math and I have a good knowledge of Basic Phisics but I am also a Sceptic when it comes to Math explaining the Physical Universe...There is more than that..Yes! Mathematics has advanced our knowledge and has allowed us to try and explain things but so many have got it wrong and there are differing explanations of the Math.

I keep an open mind and do not accept all the Math.

I will still question the held theories of those that think they know all about Physics, even without the Math.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

 

 

Physics is just an understanding of the Physical universe we exist in, Mathematics is an Intregal part of trying to equate that to, and what and why we are, but it is not the "Holy Grail" .

Some people believe that we can solve the question or find an explanation through Math.

Many mathematical Theories have been wrong in the past and will continue to be wrong...Theories are just what they are "Theories" not proven.

I will continue to question all Mathematical Theories as Math is an Inexact Science and dose not answer the basic questions..It is all Hypothetical.

 

Lets face it...We are all trying to find an explination of existence so why do Scientists think that they are the only ones who have the answer.

You mention all the parts of a good methodical approach to science, the theorizing, the math, the writing on the blackboard/paper, the physics, understanding the concepts involved, the open mind tempered with skeptical questioning, the explanations. These are all part of any attempt to find answers in science. But then you pick on math specifically and claim it doesn't explain everything. Math is just a part of a very successful methodology, the most successful methodology our species has ever used.

 

I think criticizing science, scientists and scientific achievement by pointing at one aspect of science and claiming it doesn't answer the basic questions is a flawed argument.

[Chriton]

You mention all the parts of a good methodical approach to science, the theorizing, the math, the writing on the blackboard/paper, the physics, understanding the concepts involved, the open mind tempered with skeptical questioning, the explanations. These are all part of any attempt to find answers in science. But then you pick on math specifically and claim it doesn't explain everything. Math is just a part of a very successful methodology, the most successful methodology our species has ever used.

 

I think criticizing science, scientists and scientific achievement by pointing at one aspect of science and claiming it doesn't answer the basic questions is a flawed argument.

 

I did not intend to Criticise Math or Science, they have an important role to play in our understanding of the Physical universe, Math and Science have furthered our understanding our how the Physical universe works, All I was saying was that Math is not the whole answer, it can be wrong, nor is it always correct in answering the questions that us Humans ask.

 

Why do the answers always have to be calculated in Math as Equations on a Computer,......Just "Think" about all knowledge...Yes! even the strange stuff.

 

We try to measure everything we know but there must be things we cant measure....Think about it...Is what we see all there is????

[Phi for All]

I did not intend to Criticise Math or Science, they have an important role to play in our understanding of the Physical universe, Math and Science have furthered our understanding our how the Physical universe works, All I was saying was that Math is not the whole answer, it can be wrong, nor is it always correct in answering the questions that us Humans ask.

Well of course it isn't the whole answer. It's only a part of the larger methodology. A methodology that, when used properly, can find its own mistakes and do better next time.

 

Why do the answers always have to be calculated in Math as Equations on a Computer,......Just "Think" about all knowledge...Yes! even the strange stuff.

 

We try to measure everything we know but there must be things we cant measure....Think about it...Is what we see all there is????

Just thinking about knowledge isn't enough either. Why do you criticize one part of the scientific method as being inadequate while holding up another single part of the method and say that's all we need? It's the *process* that's successful, more successful than anything else we've ever done. You should stop trying to pull it apart. Just use it as a whole. It's like you're taking the transmission out of a car and then claiming it's not enough to get you to the store. Of course it won't. Put it back and use the whole car!

[Bignose]

Why do the answers always have to be calculated in Math as Equations on a Computer

 

I want to take at least one crack at this.

 

The calculations allow objective determinations of the validity and accuracy of an answer. Words can be very descriptive, and very interesting. There are many tremendously well pieces of written literature in existence today that while reading it is very easy to imagine being transported to the world the author created.

 

But in the end, they are only words. Words have different meanings to different people. Words are inexact. Words are not objective. In short, words are imperfect.

 

Whereas when mathematics gives you a definite answer, it is an objective measure. If my theory says that the ball will land 146m from the catapult, that 146m is exactly 146m whether you measure at your house, at my house, on the moon, or anywhere else, because everyone is using the same unit of measure. Using only words, you cannot describe where the ball lands as exactly as saying "146m". If your theory says 146m and the ball lands at 298m, then clearly your theory needs work. But, if you just use words and say "a moderate distance away", your moderate may be a lot different that what I consider moderate.

 

And the other calculations of physics are the same. You create a model of the internal processes of a star, and you predict the color temperature of the star. And, then you observe a star and see how closely your prediction fits with the observation. You create a model of the universe after the big bang, and run the clock forward -- your model better predict the current intensity of the cosmic background radiation, or else why even bother to look at what else the model predicts? You create a model of fluid flow around a bend, and compare the pressure drop predicted by the model. If the pressure drop isn't right, you don't even both to look at the predicted velocity distribution, because the model has an error somewhere.

 

And that is the theme, over and over and over. You make a prediction, you compare to observation, and the agreement or disagreement between the two is the objective measure of how well the model makes predictions. Or, to take it further, if one model makes better predictions than another, the assumptions or theories behind the better model gain a little more credibility as being closer to reality. Mathematics are the tool that allow us to make these predictions and comparisons. But, as elaborated on by other responses, it isn't the only part. It is an important part, but definitely not the only one.

[ajb]

Many mathematical Theories have been wrong in the past and will continue to be wrong...Theories are just what they are "Theories" not proven.

I will continue to question all Mathematical Theories as Math is an Inexact Science and dose not answer the basic questions..It is all Hypothetical.

 

Spend some time thinking about what a physical theory is. Think about what you would mean by proven or not proven. It need not be hypothetical at all.

[Mr Skeptic]

But Math is not always the answer...Perhaps writing theories down on paper or a blackboard might be how you understand how the Physical Universe works but geting the concept into your mind is more of a challenge, so you have to take all Ideas and Knowledge into consideration when trying to explain Existence.

I like Math and I have a good knowledge of Basic Phisics but I am also a Sceptic when it comes to Math explaining the Physical Universe...There is more than that..Yes! Mathematics has advanced our knowledge and has allowed us to try and explain things but so many have got it wrong and there are differing explanations of the Math.

I keep an open mind and do not accept all the Math.

I will still question the held theories of those that think they know all about Physics, even without the Math.

 

Sometimes the very same math explains things that have wildly different physical explanations. Equations like Maxwell's equations are used to explain electromagnetism, but at their heart these are just conservation laws. Change the constants, and you can use almost the same equation to explain aspects of fluid dynamics, for example. Does this mean that electromagnetism is a fluid? Not necessarily, but it does mean you can successfully pretend its a fluid if that's how things make sense to you.

 

Physics is just an understanding of the Physical universe we exist in, Mathematics is an Intregal part of trying to equate that to, and what and why we are, but it is not the "Holy Grail" .

Some people believe that we can solve the question or find an explanation through Math.

Many mathematical Theories have been wrong in the past and will continue to be wrong...Theories are just what they are "Theories" not proven.

I will continue to question all Mathematical Theories as Math is an Inexact Science and dose not answer the basic questions..It is all Hypothetical.

 

Math is actually not a science, it is more a branch of philosophy. Math is extremely exact; a mathematical theorem is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, and will always be true and cannot ever be debunked.

 

But like in all philosophy, you do need to start with assumptions. Certain assumptions give you Euclidean geometry, and so long as you hold those assumptions Euclidean geometry gives you the right answers. In science however, there is no real way to tell what are definitely the right premises to start from. If your premises are true, then the math will give you correct answers. If your premises are false, then math can't give you the correct answers -- what you need is better premises.

 

And that's one way to think of scientific theories -- the premises used to build a mathematical model of the universe. The scientific method is an attempt to find correct premises, or at least premises that are close to being correct. But in the end, the premises might turn out to be wrong. This is no different than anything else. If a trial held in English convicts an innocent person, you don't go about blaming the English language, just because that is the language they used for the trial.

 

Lets face it...We are all trying to find an explination of existence so why do Scientists think that they are the only ones who have the answer.