coral growth vessels

[Moontanman]

Ok, you have made this claim.

 

All I can do is swear to you they are self contained

 

This is simply Bullshit, a 1000 gallon aquarium of any type much less a reef tank is not self contained. The oceans of the earth are not self contained over geological time spans. A .5 gallon reef tank is simply not capable of being self contained in any realistic definition of the term. There are no processes that could be contained in such a small container that could allow it to be "self contained"

 

Now having said that there are coral like animals (I say coral like because you seem to want to use the word to describe any of the many and often unrelated organisms that people see and call coral) That are pretty tough, I have collected via scuba diving a great many colonial organisms, when I first started out there were no "coral like organisms" available any other way. I've collected them from under bridges near sewage outflows and even in freshwater. Yes there are freshwater colonial organisms.

 

I think your post is disingenuous because you have failed to point out that the organisms you are culturing are not exactly the classic coral reef organisms most people think of when they think coral reef.

 

Please stop saying I don't know because I haven't tried, I was having live coral heads shipped from Hawaii to me 40 years ago, I personally pioneered both live rock and metal halide lighting on reef tanks. I've kept reef organisms in glass globes and even and old 1500 watt light bulb. One real rule is the smaller that container the more outside support you need and the shorter the lifespan of the container. I think i could probably set up an aquarium with an eight square foot bottom area that would be stable for decades with enough outside support. But there are things that build up that cannot be recycled in the scale of personal aquaria that would mean that eventually the tank would have to be taken down and redone. your tiny tanks would require such a tear down every few weeks at least at my best estimate.

 

next the very idea of using frozen food to feed such a small container is fatally flawed. Frozen food means the inner contents of the cells of the organism is being bled out into the water, rising takes away much of it but not all. Only live food is suitable for tiny containers. rotifiers are my choice for polyps, copepods for larger animals and yes i do culture all of them.

 

Take away your assertion these containers are easy or do not require huge amounts of maintenance and outside support and I'll quit twisting your nipples but if you keep on I'll twist them off Displaying a tank full of Coraline algae and star polyps is not proof of or even reason to believe you can set up a self contained .5 gallon reef aquarium.

 

All of the tanks you show could be and most probably are simply tiny displays that were once connected to a larger system and if not reconnected will die just like a huge coral head would die off in a small aquarium. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on most of it but the assertion this is a self contained reef tank sis just not in the realm of possibility and that not because i haven't tried it.

 

There are so many problems here, the heat from your lights would drive up the temps in such a tiny container, aeration would result in problems both with and with out it. I am still active in reefs and just because someone makes claims on the net doesn't make it true. The pic of the tiny tank in your car is so strange, was it air tight? why isn't it pressing down in the seat like something was full of water should? i see so many things that scream illusion. If you can really keep a "pico" reef that is self contained and stable long term then you my friend have really done something, I have some friends at NASA that would be interested in seeing your processes I am sure.

[periphery]

dang man you get all mad im back at work now, have to be short again but I'll gear it up tonite. thanks for responding

 

So we are back to square one, my video and all the pics are fake

Post up a pic that you know is photoshopped of someone's reef, where they inserted into a VIDEO things that were not actually there or took away things that were. people don't just do that work for fun and if they understand the basic science li

Dude, in the car that was just the reef alone as is. How the heck do you plumb a sealed reef where the only input is WIRES i showed in the VID very clearly. The stand and canopy were in the back seat. I was holding the reef, the lid is held in place by that black clamp. clear as day...

Edited November 4, 2009 by periphery
Consecutive posts merged.

[Moontanman]

dang man you get all mad im back at work now, have to be short again but I'll gear it up tonite. thanks for responding

 

Not mad dude, I never take this stuff personally.

 

So we are back to square one, my video and all the pics are fake right> the coralline, the glass growth, the micro table top, it's all fake you still say. what about the 8-9 years of web postings I've made under my pseudonym, are those all fake too, and the reefs.org nanos forum which I moderate is all fake jeeze I also did the Kennedy job too and the bogus moonwalk, clearly my photoshopping and video editing was and is still able to trick the masses.

 

None of is proof and you know it.

 

Out of the volumes I've typed, just tell me this cuz I have to be brief until 6 pm. You agreed 2.5 gallon tanks work, so where is the cutoff point in your observation that a smaller tank will not work, and what exactly causes the death. This really is beating a dead horse man, but I got a little energy left.

 

Oh contrare, a 2.5 gallon tank only works over the short term I never said it would be a stable self contained reef. You are the one making claims about tiny self contained reefs, even freshwater isn't self contained. I mentioned an eight square foot bottomed tank not a 2.5 gallon tank. I've kept the small reef tanks they require an extraordinary amount of effort compared to say a 70 gallon tank and are much more expensive both in $ per gallon and actual cost.

 

 

Lets poll the public, you all think Im faking? making up all this junk and spending all this money and wasting all this time just to make Mr. Moon mad? Or, do new things always get met with hesitation aka spanish inquisition...can someone other than moon please write a sensible detraction to any specific thing I've said in all these pages, hit me with your best shot please so I can win this guy as my buddy

 

Popular vote will never be proof, you upset me only because I do not like to see people mislead into thinking a tiny reef is easy. I am not mad, i have not attacked you personally, i think you are just misleading us, i hope by just not giving us all the pertinent details. often when something comes easy to someone, and I am guilty of this as well, it is easy to forget the details of how it was done. I want you to sit back and think about all the details of what it really takes to set up and keep a tiny reef. I think you'll realize you are leaving some stuff out. If I thought you were intentionally lying I would be pissed off. If you don't think my problems with your ideas and pics are reasonable I'll leave you alone to twist in the water current by yourself.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

First off i lost all my stuff almost ten years ago, financial meltdowns are bad but even then i never was one to take pics of my tanks. I had them on display around town and in my house. I don't see how a pic can be proof of what you say. i am still active in the reef tank community mostly as a consultant mainly because I genuinely cannot afford the expense of reef aquariums any more. if you don't like my critique of your methods then outline what you do by doing more than just making claims. How do you start out? how do you do what you do? Showing pics of what you do is as useless as me saying I call down UFOs and offering pics of unusual lights in the sky as proof. You claim to be so well known well guess what so am I my name is not moon or Moontanman it is Michael Hissom. I have been influencing Marine aquaria for more than 40 years. I've set up several pet shops and I had a live coral propagation business going 20 years ago. I honestly don't know if I'm all over the net or not. I know I've spent most of the last ten to fifteen years keeping and breeding fish native to the southern USA. Getting points for my posts are not important to me but being honest tis. You post exactly how you do what you do and I'll post what I do, i admit a preference for very large aquariums but that is just me. I remember very well the old days when coral was impossible and coral grew so slow (maybe an inch a century or something equally silly) Oh yes, light was the evil enemy to a marine aquarium and everything had to be sterile as the moon to work. Adding something from the ocean without sterilizing it was so stupid. We've come a long way since the early 70's if you can rewrite the ideas yet again then do it by actually giving us the details not just by making claims and showing pics.

[periphery]

I was under the assumption I had given detail, and plenty of it. Hey nice to meet another page typer anyway Mike. I wonder how it would have turned out if you would have started out assuming it was real rather than fake, you'd at least be a better ambassador for your site.

 

 

 

My whole point in this thread was that there are unique ways of doing reef business and you are making statements for sure about an item you have only seen two days ago, and met with a closed mind. When did that ever work as a scientific analysis I still haven't given up on you M

B

Edited November 4, 2009 by periphery
Consecutive posts merged.

[periphery]

most people have trouble getting coralline to grow in a macro reef so I'll take credit from ya wherever I can get it.

Edited November 4, 2009 by periphery

[periphery]

one of your claims was the heat would be too much. How come you didn't ask if I was using a fan larger than the reef>

Edited November 4, 2009 by periphery
time to cool down a lil

[Moontanman]

I checked out the site, interesting the tank of the month was a 34 gallon nano reef, I saw several 2.5 gallons "reefs" nothing like what you are claiming and not near sucessfull as you seem to be. I guess you are the best of them all?

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Lot so very nice Nano reefs, lots more detail about keeping them, if you had been a bit more forth coming maybe we could have avoided this conversation but I still see no .5 gallon reefs.

[periphery]

well maybe I missed that point so I'll concede that, could have linked to them sooner. we are faster typers because of it though at least

 

Im suprised you hadn't seen that site before, it's the oldest one on the entire internet about nano reefs but then again that's a really small niche of the hobby but it is growing, unless you look for it I guess no one would find it accidentally. Unfortunately mine are among the only palmtops/half gallons but in posting up how-to information Id like to start a new mini revolution just to carve my own niche

 

whether or not they are the best is subjective...the next one I build will be purely for acorpora and no other coral so I'll check back with you to get your vote first

 

hey tell me this, how did you guys keep stony corals alive in closed systems back in ~'75 without calcium and alk additives, or were people in the inner circle using limewater or dissolved high alkali solutions? Either way it wasn't too common knowledge, as every single reef tank I ever saw in the 80's featured the dead or stained/bleached corals. Now I find threads about guys with 25 year old hammer corals, that to me is a fantastic goal to have reached. I figure water changes wouldnt have been enough to keep the balances right, and nowadays there are tons of additives to choose from, so how did the pioneers of the hobby itself keep alkalinity and pH supported I'd love to know

B

Edited November 4, 2009 by periphery

[Moontanman]

I liked bubbling CO2 through arragonite.

[greenprogrammin]

Alright... I've got some books to learn marine science... you all got me interested.

 

I think while I read I will try to maintain an interest in bioremediation of marine cultures.

 

What do you all think?

Wow... I know I will have my work cut out.. hahaha

But it's just a side study...

 

So if you accidently switch your salt water solution with gasoline don't give me a call..

hahaha

 

I hope you all are getting along now...

I would love to see you all work together.

 

I have a couple of questions....

How important is the microflora in the water (can you do without)?

 

I have a tonne of questions but I will try to keep them until I have a better look at my books.

 

Thanks!

B

[periphery]

Moontanman

 

 

Howdy

 

my vase is still alive. Glad you still post here / active that’s rare on forums. Longevity 

 

Given the # of pico reefs now running you can see I wasn’t messing with you in 09 we were legit able to spread the science. 
 

Taken about a month ago or two 

 

Zombie resurrection of a thread from 09 is legit if the same aquarium still exists

Impact to today’s coral reef issues: we can keep most species alive in fishbowls in a common home, laypersons following a set order of ops

 

 

Then repopulate lost areas of reefs by seeding from our terrestrial vessels. I have found out how to run micro reef tanks with no biological lifespan limit is the entire point, fancy gear is no longer needed.  I’m brandon429 from the reef boards.

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2017/12/28/coral-magazine-new-issue-micro-reefs-inside-look/
 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by periphery

[periphery]

 

not that these guys give credit for making money off ideas uploaded to the internet a decade ago, but new markets were created around the hard to believe micro reefs. I wasn’t in it for money, I was in it for science and I used web forums to log the original designs. I don’t care if people take the idea for revenue money or not, the point is that micro reef keeping has always been a legit science and with about 15 ordered steps anyone with a fishbowl could easily be growing endangered keys staghorn acropora and other species.

 

 

 

[periphery]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-pico-itti-bitti-small-in-one.953323/
 

 

here is a prime example of a first time coral keeper venturing into the game with the ultra small tanks from pnw

[periphery]

@Moontanman

 

any commentary 

 

 

you were a strong skeptic for the matter, imagine someone new coming onto the board in the chemistry forum trying to tell the master chemists with 40 year’s experience that they had found a new way to balance equations, or that they’d discovered a way to keep an unstable element stable at room temperature / anything that shakes up the game

 

they would be interested once it was determined the new guy wasn’t just bs’ing, they would for sure comment once the new practice became widespread 

 

do you have an online handle for the reef forums? Was wondering if we ever chatted in the forums vs just here 

 

if you participate in the online forums like reef2reef or reefcentral I am guessing you watched pico reefing evolve without my relay of information.

Edited January 8, 2023 by periphery

[Moontanman]

4 hours ago, periphery said:

@Moontanman

 

any commentary 

 

 

you were a strong skeptic for the matter, imagine someone new coming onto the board in the chemistry forum trying to tell the master chemists with 40 year’s experience that they had found a new way to balance equations, or that they’d discovered a way to keep an unstable element stable at room temperature / anything that shakes up the game

 

they would be interested once it was determined the new guy wasn’t just bs’ing, they would for sure comment once the new practice became widespread 

 

do you have an online handle for the reef forums? Was wondering if we ever chatted in the forums vs just here 

 

if you participate in the online forums like reef2reef or reefcentral I am guessing you watched pico reefing evolve without my relay of information.

I do not believe you, I was keeping coral more than 45 years ago and all your links do not support your claims. Coral in a tiny container without a huge support system is simply not possible in the way you are suggesting. 

[periphery]

Thank you for posting

 

Would coral magazine, worldwide publication, lie? See page 30, lemme know if skepticism endures:

Read page 30 onward

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2017/12/28/coral-magazine-new-issue-micro-reefs-inside-look

The two pico reefs featured there are my friends, and their micro reefs are better than mine/ $/ but not as old. 

 

Readers:

Do a Google search on pico reefing, see if that's all fake pics

Use the pic selector for images, a million pico reefs that aren't mine come up. This thread is a fantastic example of digging in heels at all costs. 

I must now doubt any science information you've posted to this site. 

 

Not due to round one in 2009 that's understandable, it was new science...but due to no directed self study since then. 

 

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/forum/37-pico-reef-journals/

@Moontanman

 

Can you post us one pic of your reef, from today, not from ten years ago?

 

I honestly think you reefed forty years ago, but not today, and haven't updated your reading since owning a tank. **this is not being mean** its a fair information vetting request. One pic of a reef you own today is good street cred for me just not for analysis of pico reefs

No pics=no street cred from the cable guy

Edited January 11, 2023 by periphery

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, periphery said:

Thank you for posting

 

Would coral magazine, worldwide publication, lie? See page 30, lemme know if skepticism endures:

Read page 30 onward

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2017/12/28/coral-magazine-new-issue-micro-reefs-inside-look

The two pico reefs featured there are my friends, and their micro reefs are better than mine/ $/ but not as old. 

 

Readers:

Do a Google search on pico reefing, see if that's all fake pics

Use the pic selector for images, a million pico reefs that aren't mine come up. This thread is a fantastic example of digging in heels at all costs. 

I must now doubt any science information you've posted to this site. 

 

Not due to round one in 2009 that's understandable, it was new science...but due to no directed self study since then. 

 

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/forum/37-pico-reef-journals/

@Moontanman

 

Can you post us one pic of your reef, from today, not from ten years ago?

 

I honestly think you reefed forty years ago, but not today, and haven't updated your reading since owning a tank. **this is not being mean** its a fair information vetting request. One pic of a reef you own today is good street cred for me just not for analysis of pico reefs

No pics=no street cred from the cable guy

As i have said i no longer keep marine fish, I move around too much to provide a stable environment for them. 

[periphery]

Understood

 

Had missed that part

 

I never want to own a large tank, it's nice to have diverse fish but the cost and hassle aren't appealing to me- I move around a lot too.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by periphery

[periphery]

I want to try and guide the thread back to focus on these new means of growing corals

 

 

that is the best quality pico reef I know of. Its on it's tenth year now. my friend Maritza the vase reef keeps it, we've been chatting by text message for as long as well, we send each other updates. That pico reef stands out from mine in that the corals are ALL top shelf: some are $500 apiece

 

that's about three thousand dollars of corals, in a one gallon fishbowl, meticulously documented on youtube the whole time/see her channel. 

 

 

relevancy to science:

 

marine biologists from scripps institute who research coral their entire lives did not invent this method, web nerds did, and they now use our pico reef methodology in formal studies. 

 

the equation balanced this way, for once:    anecdote found by 1 person modeled by 3, then 13, then 200, then 3000, then 5000+  ---> formal scientists take note and begin usage long after its well known online. Readers: don't ever think personal anecdote patterns you may stumble upon are useless just because they don't come from peer-reviewed sources. 

 

Peers that review sources got benefit from youtuber's work uploaded free, and messily. Florida staghorn acropora is CITES protected/ we aren't allowed to own it without research permits...but if we did get some, we could turn it into elkhorn antlers of growth across ten thousand bubbling fishbowls

 

we do not need the dosers, measurements, filters, pumps, extravagant setups that comprised marine coral husbandry of yesteryear. any single one of those corals above in Maritza's vase is easily harder to grow than ugly brown staghorn acropora. We could be utilizing this method to literally regenerate reefs in the wild or at least hold coral specimens in ark-type setups in layperson's homes across the us, even in Kansas

 

Look at this research paper

 

https://cdhc.noaa.gov/_docs/TCB Small Scale Exp Systems TM Final.pdf

 

 

see the fishbowl/pico reef element? see the mention of Randy Holmes-Farley, the top reef chemist in the world/ online at least?

 

thats pros using our stuff from common reef tank forums to help forward real oceanic studies, they didn't invent it, they utilize it now though=yay.

Edited January 12, 2023 by periphery

[Genady]

30 minutes ago, periphery said:

I want to try and guide the thread back to focus on these new means of growing corals

I've never heard of this. Can I read an abstract?

[Moontanman]

I was doing some research and it seems some one is using my name and image to smear me online in the marine aquarium community. This is caricature assignation, anyone who see me online commenting on pico reefs should ignore it.   

1 hour ago, periphery said:

I want to try and guide the thread back to focus on these new means of growing corals

 

 

that is the best quality pico reef I know of. Its on it's tenth year now. my friend Maritza the vase reef keeps it, we've been chatting by text message for as long as well, we send each other updates. That pico reef stands out from mine in that the corals are ALL top shelf: some are $500 apiece

 

that's about three thousand dollars of corals, in a one gallon fishbowl, meticulously documented on youtube the whole time/see her channel. 

 

 

relevancy to science:

 

marine biologists from scripps institute who research coral their entire lives did not invent this method, web nerds did, and they now use our pico reef methodology in formal studies. 

 

the equation balanced this way, for once:    anecdote found by 1 person modeled by 3, then 13, then 200, then 3000, then 5000+  ---> formal scientists take note and begin usage long after its well known online. Readers: don't ever think personal anecdote patterns you may stumble upon are useless just because they don't come from peer-reviewed sources. 

 

Peers that review sources got benefit from youtuber's work uploaded free, and messily. Florida staghorn acropora is CITES protected/ we aren't allowed to own it without research permits...but if we did get some, we could turn it into elkhorn antlers of growth across ten thousand bubbling fishbowls

 

we do not need the dosers, measurements, filters, pumps, extravagant setups that comprised marine coral husbandry of yesteryear. any single one of those corals above in Maritza's vase is easily harder to grow than ugly brown staghorn acropora. We could be utilizing this method to literally regenerate reefs in the wild or at least hold coral specimens in ark-type setups in layperson's homes across the us, even in Kansas

 

Look at this research paper

 

https://cdhc.noaa.gov/_docs/TCB Small Scale Exp Systems TM Final.pdf

 

 

see the fishbowl/pico reef element? see the mention of Randy Holmes-Farley, the top reef chemist in the world/ online at least?

 

thats pros using our stuff from common reef tank forums to help forward real oceanic studies, they didn't invent it, they utilize it now though=yay.

If you want to impress me or anyone else for that matter please list the parameters of your tank, species of corals, how long they have been in the tank and the specific up keep of the tank, ie water changes, trace element dosing, feeding schedule, actual water volume, filtration details, evaporation top ups, lighting, and anything else you do to facilitate the upkeep of the tank. BTW, saying that scientists are using your methods and posting a link to that has already shown you are being deceptive, the link clearly shows water being poured into the small tanks from a larger source and the pic of the tank in the car is just silly and obviously photo shopped. That tank would weight between 35 and 45 pounds and yet it is setting on the seat level with no deformation of the seat. Please don't use photo shop to try and fool others.   

[periphery]

Both of you

 

I will respond, after you read this 4th post of this link

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2017/12/28/coral-magazine-new-issue-micro-reefs-inside-look/. 

 

There's nothing I could post any one here would reasonably inspect or view, or read comments from others to vet what I'm saying here for better than a decade? Google is a neat tool for verifying, looking up things. 

I'm going to do a picture when I get home that says for Moontanman with vase behind it. 

 

And you'll still say it's made up??

Edited January 12, 2023 by periphery

[Genady]

11 minutes ago, periphery said:

Is an abstract still required?

Yes. Even if it is copied and pasted from the magazine.

[periphery]

Before I give you tech details, which you'll just deny obviously, I expect a 180 degree change of behavior good buddy 

 

Acknowledge you possibly jumped the gun last decade, I'll forgive, I'll tell you my tech specs and I expect no more kickback. If you don't agree, I'll let you read the massive pico reef forum you haven't clicked on, and determine specs off 1500 people copying my method. 

 

Fun adventure. For scientists: use abstracts and tell me who invented pico reefing. Post findings/ exercise of the utility of abstracts and formal peer reviews, use them to determine who invented pico reefing

Gennady

 

You seem reasonable

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/forum/37-pico-reef-journals/

 

Is that a lie by me? Is that not a pico reef forum you could vet me with? Is that not fourteen years of back threads which are my abstract?

 

Scientists didn't invent this, cable guys did heh 

 

That stings potentially I get it, we can't even keep the internet working/ not possible to be coral jedis

I'm doing my video tonite, let's see that get claimed as fake. Special dedication coming up

My phone browser froze and I honestly thought I was banned before I could make a video of my vase, my face, my article in print and I'll lift the vase up to you to show its a vase not a magicians trick. 

Nobody green screens a phone video, you need to accept what's coming

 

Has anyone looked up my vase and science online, via Google? It's so easy to do.  you guys are telling brandon429/ periphery here that pico reefs aren't real, in 2023 heh

 

This is exactly why I used web forums to stamp my science. Not for cash, to show where it came first. 

 

Go open a forum ID at reef2reef and ask if pico reefs are fake

 

then ask where they came from

 

See y'all tonite, don't ban me I'll deliver a cool proof vid discussing this post in a cool way. I get off work in two hours then I drive I35 towards Austin gimme a bit 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by periphery

[Genady]

18 minutes ago, periphery said:

use abstracts and tell me who invented pico reefing. Post findings/ exercise of the utility of abstracts and formal peer reviews, use them to determine who invented pico reefing

Why would I care who invented XYZ? I am sure that person has a name. I am also quite sure I don't know that person. The most importantly, I don't know what XYZ is except it has something to do with corals. I know something about corals.