Sisyphus Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Well, President Zelaya of Honduras has been forcefully removed from power and removed from the country. A lot of people, including Obama and many major news outlets, are calling it an "illegal coup." But is it one? As I gather it, Zelaya, approaching the end of his term and facing constitutional terms limits, tried to put out a non-binding referendum on whether he be allowed to run for re-election. The problem was that the Honduran constitution apparently forbids even attempting to overturn term limits. (They are very afraid of populist "presidents for life.") The legislature refused to support the referendum, and it went to the supreme court, which ruled against the president. The president then ordered the military to carry out a survey, but major elements refused on the grounds of it being an illegal order, and several commanders were dismissed. Zelaya, who apparently is still quite popular, then gathered together protestors to retrieve ballots from a military base and carry out the survey. For defying the supreme court, he was ordered arrested, which the military did. He was removed from the country, and a (disputed) letter of resignation was produced, and the chairman of the legislature was sworn in as president, as per the constitutional order of succession. So, does anyone have better information. Is this a coup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D H Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 [sarcasm]What is all this? That's pretty inconsiderate of you, Sisyphus, talking about something as trivial as the removal of the leader of a country. The only news worth discussing these days is the death of Michael Jackson.[/sarcasm] Unfortunately, the only news worth discussing these days apparently is the death of Michael Jackson. It is a bit tough to find information on this subject. From what I can tell, you have given a fairly accurate assessment of the situation. Is this a coup? That is a very very tough call. Honduras clearly wanted to avoid the problem encountered elsewhere in the developing world where populist leaders have repeated managed to convince the electorate to name them President for Life. Honduras framed their constitution so that Presidents serve one term and one term only and framed this in such a way so that this clause cannot be overturned sans a complete rewrite of the constitution. The penalty for attempting to subvert this clause is loss of power and loss of citizenship. Zelaya clearly attempted to subvert the constitution. If this is a coup, it certainly is not a standard, run of the mill military coup. A military officer refused to follow what he deemed to be illegal orders and paid the consequences: Zelaya fired him. Disobeying blatantly illegal orders, and then accepting the consequences, is a noble thing to do. The military did not respond to this firing by holding a coup and taking power. Instead the military let the civil system run its course. They removed Zelaya on the orders of the Supreme Court. They never took power of the country. Regarding the supposedly forged letter of resignation: We only have Zelaya's word that the letter is forged. It is SOP in the US and elsewhere for those appointed to executive branch jobs to sign a letter of resignation as a precondition for taking the job. My suspicion (pure conjecture on my part) is that the Zelaya signed this letter of recommendation 3+ years ago and that Honduras' Congress delayed accepting this resignation until a couple of days ago. On the other hand, Honduras has done some rather dumb things such as closing down the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear's Key Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 As I gather it, Zelaya, approaching the end of his term and facing constitutional terms limits, tried to put out a non-binding referendum on whether he be allowed to run for re-election. The president then ordered the military to carry out a survey... Zelaya, who apparently is still quite popular, then gathered together protestors to...carry out the survey. If true...well Zelaya f'd up (it seems), and tested his luck pushing the envelope. Yet he could've avoided the first two instances and just went directly to the people to begin with (instead of making it his third option). And Zelaya might've fared better responding as the military officer below. Disobeying blatantly illegal orders, and then accepting the consequences, is a noble thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Like so many things that happen in Latin America, it's an oddball situation. I wasn't aware of the angle of the supreme court ordering the military to depose the president -- that's interesting. Presumably the White House knew this when they declared the coup to be illegal, so I'll just have to wait and see how this shakes out. It is interesting that this put Obama, at least temporarily, on the same side of the fence as Venezuela's Hugo Chavez. Not a comfortable place to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 Like so many things that happen in Latin America, it's an oddball situation. I wasn't aware of the angle of the supreme court ordering the military to depose the president -- that's interesting. Presumably the White House knew this when they declared the coup to be illegal, so I'll just have to wait and see how this shakes out. It is interesting that this put Obama, at least temporarily, on the same side of the fence as Venezuela's Hugo Chavez. Not a comfortable place to be. The supreme court only declared that they had ordered the arrest later on, so I'm not sure of the order of events. Also, Obama did at least say that Zelaya's actions were also illegal and unwise. Apparently the U.S. government had strongly advised him to knock it off before all this happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Of course this is a coup - by the rich, powerful elites - as ever. Zelaya was a champion of the poor, and that just will not do. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090713/grandin/single http://www.counterpunch.org/thorensen07012009.html http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/day-three-democracy-held-hostage-honduras Photos of the coup here. As ever the army beats up the poor. http://www.elpais.com/fotogaleria/Golpe/militar/Honduras/6580-1/elpgal/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphus Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Why "of course?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombus Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Why "of course?" Well, I have read a lot about other coups in South America. As soon as I heard about it I guessed the general situation, and it only took the most limited of research to find out that my instincts were correct. I could smell it a mile off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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