YT2095 Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 the Hydrogen Ion can be either + or - the + being Hydrogen and the - being Hydride having said that, maybe I`ve got a mental block today, but could the same apply to any of the Group 1 elements (alkali metals). I`ve never heard of such an occurance, as they all seem to be cations in any compound that I`m aware of, even in Aluminate manganate selenate zincates etc... is there a reason that Hydrogen is the odd one out? I did know at one time, but I`ve forgotten ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blike Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Hydrogen behaves somewhat like a halogen in that it only needs one more electron to fill it's valence shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 aha, that could be it then, I`m still thinking Octet rule, not the 2,8,8 blah blah I saw your edit, I have one where H is above the Alkali metals (group one) and another where it is on its own in the middle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 oh, but wait, there's more! the + being Hydrogen actually, H+ is hydronium. but back to the point, yes, there are other group 1 cations. here's the good ol' biochem connection: in the axon of neurons, there is a sort of Na K "pump". as different nerve impulses occur, Na+ ions and K- ions move across a barrier (forgot the name, it's been a year since i took a molecular bio class). i've never heard of another group 1 anion aside from K- and H- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 K- nice one although I`ve never heard of it? what sort of compounds does that make? I`ve heard of metal hydrides, what would one name a metal potassiumide or Kalide if we use the old arabic term? Lithium Hydride is a known compound, what would K- bind with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 although I`ve never heard of it? what sort of compounds does that make? I`ve heard of metal hydrides, what would one name a metal potassiumide or Kalide if we use the old arabic term? K- doesn't actually make compounds in the axon. it just goes between 0 and -1 charge, like the Na in the "pump" goes between 0 and +1 charge. the K and Na just exchange e-, but never actually bond. they exchange ions in what i'd like to call a "fully ionic 'bond'" (not at all polar covalent). as for the K- outside the axon, it's highly unlikely to even exist, let alone bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felinlasv Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Are you sure about the K- at the outside of the axon? We recently discussed the transport of impulses through axons during my classes and the only compounds we talked about where Na+, Cl-, K+ and aminoacids. What they told me was that by transporting some of them in and out of the axon you create a voltagedifference (which will travel over the axon) but we didn't see anything about K+ taking 2 electrons.. Enlighten me please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apathy Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 oh' date=' but wait, there's more! actually, H+ is hydronium. but back to the point, yes, there are other group 1 cations. here's the good ol' biochem connection: in the axon of neurons, there is a sort of Na K "pump". as different nerve impulses occur, Na+ ions and K- ions move across a barrier (forgot the name, it's been a year since i took a molecular bio class). i've never heard of another group 1 anion aside from K- and H-[/quote'] BOO! The Na/K pump is replacing Na+ with K+ ain't no way you'll have K- in water. In water all K or Na is + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 curses. hey, it's been a year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemistry Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 H+ is not hydronium...H30+, K-...I don't believe that this is common at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted May 30, 2004 Author Share Posted May 30, 2004 I must admit, if any element from group 1 was going to have such a possible similarity, I`de have thought Lithium. it`s closest to Hydrogen and the name Lithide doesn`t sound wrong (I`m joking about the last part! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 H+ is not hydronium...H30+ actually, H3O+ is hydronium, but i prefer calling H+ hydronium (which is also correct) because H+ is a bit more accurate. the reason for this is because i really dislike the term "hydrogen bond". there are van der waal's forces in action, but no actual bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tian_07 Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 There are some periodic tables which do place one of the hydrogen blocks above the halogens... i gues thats y... and yeah ive heard the name hydronium before. ITs supposed to be the resulting ion of an acid dissolved in water... hydride... other than lithium hydride... can someone give me a example of a hydride... because on the tables nowadays... I only c the H+ atom... no more H- thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuarkQuarkQuark2001 Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 I think hydrogen atom being cation in some polyatomic ion like ammonium. I think it doesn't go ionic way during normal conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 can someone give me a example of a hydride...as far as i know, many metals can bond with H to form a hydride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apathy Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 lithium almuminum hydride sodium borohydride are the two most common metal hydride reagents that I know of when an H group is a ligand on a transition metal, it's called a hydride outright, since it's assumed that the H is usually more electronegative than most metal centers. i've seen H on some periodic tables being put up in the sky, kind of off on it's own, since it's really just a proton and an electron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budullewraagh Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 sorry to dig up an old topic, but i recently found that all alkali metals form negative ions in NH3 solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Mediocre Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Just reading the thread and had to put this in... Sorry Budullewraagh, hydrogen bonds are quite real and prolific and utilize partial charge character on atoms induced by group polarity. The interatomic distances between a hydrogen donor and an accepting group in interaction of the type H...NR2, H...OH, H...OH2, H...Cl, H...Br etc etc are well BELOW the sum of the van der Waals radii of the H and acceptor atoms, with significant orbital overlap occurring. ...and...the best accepted term for H+ in the literature is `proton'. H3O+ is hydronium (as you correctly stated), and other larger cations also exist in solution such as H5O2+, H7O3+ and have been crystallographically characterized. They are also known as hydronium ions! Don't mean to ramble but hydrogen bonding is a pet subject of mine and I just couldn't let it go. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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