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When will the Republicans recover from Bush?


bascule
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Obviously, the Republicans didn't do so well in the last election, with Democrats taking control of both houses of Congress and the presidency.

 

CNN posted this question in a recent article:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/27/gop.comeback/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

 

One Republican, Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky opines:

 

"President Bush had become extremely unpopular, and politically he was sort of a millstone around our necks in both '06 and '08," McConnell told reporters Friday. "We now have the opportunity to be on offense, offer our own ideas and we will win some."

 

But are they winning some? As far as I can tell they are operating in a completely contrarian mode, refusing to reach out to the Democrats in power and sitting around coming up with their own solutions in isolations, solutions which will never see the light of day.

 

CNN notes:

 

Many of those ideas get presented as amendments to Democratic bills, and even though they're usually defeated, they can draw attention to GOP policy alternatives and force Democrats to take difficult votes.

 

...so I guess they are getting some legislation through. But then I see:

 

"I don't feel anyone should be apologetic for opposing a bad idea," McConnell said. "I'm not fearful of an effort to demonize dissent."

 

Dissent is great, but politics is the art of compromise. Are Republicans willing to compromise?

 

I really liked this quote from former Crossfire partisan hack Paul Begala:

 

The Republicans are like an arsonist who complains that the fire department is wasting water. Obama is trying to handle an immediate crisis while also laying the foundation for long-term growth. The Republicans are doing neither

 

His sentiment really underlies the present situation. I think the Republicans did a lot of things which dramatically exacerbated our present situation, if not outright causing it. After a long period of cutting taxes and dramatically increasing spending they caused the national deficit to skyrocket. But now, that we're in the middle of a financial crisis, they're suddenly paying attention to it.

 

It seems as if they've grown accustomed to grandstanding and demagogery, and those are the only tools they have left to reclaim power. Will they succeed?

 

I suppose their only hope at this point is that Obama and the Democrats fail in their policies. In that case, the Republicans become the alternative by default. Given the sheer amount of bitching I've heard coming out of conservatives, I think it's clear the Democrats do actually have ideas. They are making controversial decisions. Whether or not they are the right decisions remains to be seen.

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Dissent is great, but politics is the art of compromise. Are Republicans willing to compromise?

 

Analytically speaking, I think compromise with democrats resembles the failed McCain/Palin "moderate/centrist" campaign too much. They tried to act like democrats - though I personally believe McCain is mostly genuine about his partisan compromise - and appeal to the rejection of Bush style partisanship. I think they may have missed the point a bit. They didn't need to abandon conservatism, they needed to abandon Bush's method.

 

I think they get this now, and so are trying to come back to conservative principles, which presently takes the form of staying contrary to liberal ideas and pushing their own agenda.

 

Personally, I only support them in the capacity of being some kind of resistance to the socialist ideas being rolled out right now.

 

 

It seems as if they've grown accustomed to grandstanding and demagogery, and those are the only tools they have left to reclaim power. Will they succeed?

 

It's working for the democrats, so I don't see why not. Appealing to emotion is, unfortunately, probably the most powerful weapon in politics.

 

The democrats have done an effective job at demonizing the upper class, taking advantage of people's natural tendency to externalize all of their ills. The "rich" are the politically correct minority to bigot. One look at the AIG mellodrama confirms, at the very least, an elementary level operating capacity in judgement by the american public.

 

So, I imagine the republicans will do what both parties have been doing all of my life, and continue to cater to the lowest common denominator and capitalize off of their inherent prejudices. Whether it's envy for the rich and successful, or fury for out-group integration, it's always the same.

 

I'm reminded of Leoben..."All of this has happened before...and will happen again". ;)

 

Until of course, you're tired of it and start electing statesmen instead of salesmen.

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I hope they never recover. I rather have socialism than see the republican religious ideology back in power. Think Huckabee, womens right to choose, the teaching of creationism in schools, ban on stem cell research, war on science, etc, etc. Republicans back in power give me the chills. :doh:

 

Bettina

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I hope they never recover. I rather have socialism than see the republican religious ideology back in power. Think Huckabee, womens right to choose, the teaching of creationism in schools, ban on stem cell research, war on science, etc, etc. Republicans back in power give me the chills. :doh:

 

Bettina

 

That really isn't the general base of republican values, those are the issues that hijacked the republican party in an effort to grow a base capable of claiming enough states to win elections.

 

Right now there is a bit of a struggle within the republican party as many wish to return to the core values that when combined with thought through plans actually do appeal to voters - whether enough to get elected without the "bible base" in today's world is yet to be seen.

 

On the flip side, many want to go further into the Huckabee realm... so this struggle is part of their reinvention. Interestingly if they had a mantra other than "tax cuts!" as the fix all it may actually appeal to people, as I know as liberal as I am, I am getting suspicious that the dems are any more thoughtful in just yelling "bailout!" as a fix all.

 

In short, I think while they are guilty of going down the road they did... it's unfair to paint them solely by that brush. I've never really supported republicans but I will withhold judgment until we see what they emerge as.

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i think if obama doesnt encourage science in a way that at least makes up for bushs idiotic "unnatural" statements on stem cell reaserch and others, then im moving to europe.

 

Obama issued an executive order lifting Bush's previous ban on stem cell research:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/09/obama-stem-cell-research_n_173075.html

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I hope they never recover. I rather have socialism than see the republican religious ideology back in power. Think Huckabee, womens right to choose, the teaching of creationism in schools, ban on stem cell research, war on science, etc, etc. Republicans back in power give me the chills. :doh:

 

Bettina

 

While I slightly agree with you, that is a rather naive idea. For all the troubles of a two party system, it is far less dangerous than a one party system. The Republican party can't disappear, but it could be replaced. Most likely they will recover rather quickly, even if they change a little to do so.

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I hope they never recover. I rather have socialism than see the republican religious ideology back in power. Think Huckabee, womens right to choose, the teaching of creationism in schools, ban on stem cell research, war on science, etc, etc. Republicans back in power give me the chills. :doh:

 

Bettina

 

 

Federal funding for medical research involving the creation or destruction of human embryos through the Department of Health and Human Services and the National Institutes of Health has been forbidden by law since the passage in 1995 of the Dickey Amendment by Congress and the signature of President Bill Clinton.[129] Bush has said that he supports adult stem cell research and has supported Federal legislation that finances adult stem cell research. However Bush did not support embryonic stem cell research.[130] On August 9, 2001, Bush signed an executive order lifting the ban on federal funding for the 71 existing "lines" of stem cells,[131] but the ability of these existing lines to provide an adequate medium for testing has been questioned. Testing can only be done on twelve of the original lines, and all of the approved lines have been cultured in contact with mouse cells, which creates safety issues that complicate development and approval of therapies from these lines.[132] On July 19, 2006, Bush used his veto power for the first time in his presidency to veto the Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act. The bill would have repealed the Dickey Amendment, thereby permitting federal money to be used for research where stem cells are derived from the destruction of an embryo.[133]

 

 

Bush lifted the BAN on 12 allowing some FEDERAL FUNDING...

 

On NASA, he has increased funding each year while in office as well as the National Science Foundation. AIDS Research, Pandemic Research, Solar Cell and Battery Power research and a host of scientific projects, many time for the 1st time in history.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW_Bush

 

Teaching Creationism in your school, if thats your problem, is the responsibility of your local 'Board of Education'. Think there are about 2000+ of these boards around the US, basically in charge of public K-12 educational

systems (about 50% of the total schools) and this seems to be a constant issue, said to be a Federal choice. It is not....

 

Although nothing is final as of NOW, the Obama Budget(s), flat lines NASA and may eliminate NSA Funding altogether.

 

 

I read your profile, and you appear to be a well rounded 'all American young lady' living with your Dad and probably have a future in Music, possibly the opera or some religious group. When I saw your post, I literally squirmed in my chair for fear of what else is being taught in todays public schools or the actual influence of the main stream media. Your obviously interested in your country and have made enough post to show that interest, reflecting you intelligence. I am at least three generations your senior (an old guy) and would guaranty you, Socialism would not in any way make you happy. I sincerely hope you and millions like you learn this before it's too late. (including Cameron)

 

 

Mr. Skeptic; Ironically the 1st Party to form during formation of the US, was called the Democratic-Republican Party. Others have formed and disappeared (we have about 14 today) and Republican was dropped around 1812 from the D-R party only to return in 1856 or so. During this 230 year history party platforms have changed, and those voting for or against have changed. Single issues have in most cases have given success to one or another's, whether Slavery, Womens Suffrage, Security/Isolationism (war or pacifist) to more recently the Economy. An example would be JFK's Democratic Party and very similar to the Reagan Republican Party, if in actions only.

 

To the thread; As long as America survives, under it's original Constitution or even today acceptance of that 'Outline', there will be a 'loyal opposition'. It's when we have become ruled as single party (FDR, Johnson/Carter and today) that extremes happen, no less than what the current Democratic base feels about Bush/Republican Congress. Washington, in his 'Farewell to the Nation Speech' said it best, fearing party loyalty could become more important than the interest of the Nation. Although I fear were in the initial stages of act three (FDR/Johnson the 1st 2) 'socialization of America', it's my belief the American People, those new here to those with historic roots, will see beyond that loyalty to the basic tradition/culture that got the US to where it is. I further think that return will be quick and possibly not pretty and worry most of all that blame will be laid on individuals who were simply being who they are and got elected. This could be said of at least the past 50 years of Presidents, any of which have been brutalized in our history books or media, despite the fact, THEY WERE EACH ELECTED by the electorate and under the Constitution...

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Jackson33... To me, teaching Creationism in school should not be the responsibility of the local Education board. It should be the responsibility of the Supreme Court. They should be the one's to determine whether something that borders the supernatural be taught in public schools and whatever that determination is, it should be universal to every state. Sarah Palin, given McCains age, had a real chance to be president but her views on creationism along with the possibility of appointing Supreme Court justices made for a scary situation.

 

Just so you know, The last election was the first time I was of age to vote for POTUSA so I went over each candidate with a fine tooth comb. In the beginning I was beholden to no one but when I examined past voting records of each candidate on sites like http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm and matched them to my personal ideals it quickly became clear that I couldn't support most Republicans. I saw President Bush as stagnant, John McCain too old, Huckabee and Sarah Palin as full creationists, and the rest too weak to move America out of President Bush's dark age.

 

Yes, I sing in church and concerts and I live a very Christian way of life but in my heart I'm just not a believer. I really wanted to be but all I ever saw was emptiness. However, I fully support any non-violent religion as long as it stays in the home, place of worship, or on your person, and not in schools or politics.

 

Lastly, believe me I don't want to see Socialism but I don't want to see uncontrolled greed either. There has to be something in the middle and I can only hope Obama knows what he's doing. :confused:

 

Bettina

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Looks like Newt Gingrich will be the main Republican candidate for 2012 president, but I'd much rather they prop up another religiot moron like Palin or Jindall so we can avoid more wars on peoples and sciences and common sense and constitutionality for a few more years.

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Looks like Newt Gingrich will be the main Republican candidate for 2012 president, but I'd much rather they prop up another religiot moron like Palin or Jindall so we can avoid more wars on peoples and sciences and common sense and constitutionality for a few more years.

 

It's possible. Having voted for him a few times myself, I'd be watching closely, but he more or less lost me when he started siding with the religious right. I don't agree with his born-again interest in market economics, either. He's one of those conservatives who believes in the "starve the beast" theory, but his own speakership is recent proof that it doesn't work -- even with his own party in charge. PBS may have forgotten that the budget grew something like 180% under Bill & Newt, but I haven't.

 

Newt will be 69 at election time, btw. Not that that would necessarily stop him or his supporters, it's just worth pointing out that he's a bit older than he looks on TV, and Republicans will almost certainly be looking for a younger candidate.


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Jackson33... To me, teaching Creationism in school should not be the responsibility of the local Education board. It should be the responsibility of the Supreme Court. They should be the one's to determine whether something that borders the supernatural be taught in public schools and whatever that determination is, it should be universal to every state.

 

They already have. The most recent battles have revolved around an attempt to circumvent that ruling by calling it something other than "creationism". Hence the popular phrase "cdesign proponentsists", referring to an incident related to the Dover case in which a failed Microsoft Word search resulted in an unknown user trying to replace the word "creationism" with "design proponents" in a textbook and missing a couple of letters.

 

Personally I think we're worrying over nothing. After the McCain nomination the religious right took one too many Tylenol PMs, and I doubt we'll hear from them in 2012 either. I could be wrong, of course.

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Personally I think we're worrying over nothing. After the McCain nomination the religious right took one too many Tylenol PMs, and I doubt we'll hear from them in 2012 either. I could be wrong, of course.

I think you are. This site tracks the attempts to put creationism in our classrooms. Texas has been getting hit hard with these battles lately, as has Iowa and the Indiana region. One bill just failed by only a one vote margin, far too close for the comfort you imply in your post above. The biggest challenge is how subtly they word the bills, yet how profound the impact would be if they ever managed to slip through.

 

I implore you to spend some time reviewing the site below if you genuinely care about this subject.

 

 

http://ncseweb.org/

 

ncselogo.jpg

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Personally I think we're worrying over nothing. After the McCain nomination the religious right took one too many Tylenol PMs, and I doubt we'll hear from them in 2012 either. I could be wrong, of course.

 

I suspect they'll get louder, but more localized. It seems to me that it's those who just lost a lot of relevance are generally the loudest - across the political spectrum. There are still politicians who will think they can wrangle the Republican party and play to that base, though I think they'll ultimately fail in that... but there could be some sparks along the way. My best guess is they'll remain busy to try to remain feeling relevant - and at this time it's on the local community/state level where they have saturation levels in some states that can have a pretty large impact. They aren't in as large of a theater but having fallen back they will fortify.

 

[/conjecture]

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Jackson33... To me, teaching Creationism in school should not be the responsibility of the local Education board. It should be the responsibility of the Supreme Court. They should be the one's to determine whether something that borders the supernatural be taught in public schools and whatever that determination is, it should be universal to every state. Sarah Palin, given McCains age, had a real chance to be president but her views on creationism along with the possibility of appointing Supreme Court justices made for a scary situation.

 

Just so you know, The last election was the first time I was of age to vote for POTUSA so I went over each candidate with a fine tooth comb. In the beginning I was beholden to no one but when I examined past voting records of each candidate on sites like http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm and matched them to my personal ideals it quickly became clear that I couldn't support most Republicans. I saw President Bush as stagnant, John McCain too old, Huckabee and Sarah Palin as full creationists, and the rest too weak to move America out of President Bush's dark age.

 

Yes, I sing in church and concerts and I live a very Christian way of life but in my heart I'm just not a believer. I really wanted to be but all I ever saw was emptiness. However, I fully support any non-violent religion as long as it stays in the home, place of worship, or on your person, and not in schools or politics.

 

Lastly, believe me I don't want to see Socialism but I don't want to see uncontrolled greed either. There has to be something in the middle and I can only hope Obama knows what he's doing. :confused:

Bettina

 

I don't believe you feel, people from another place should be in charge of what is taught in your school. People of your State do have the right, each State having it's own system to influence and the Federal through National Testing try to influence the major subjects. Here in NM they settled the problems years ago, NO Creationism or Intelligent Design is taught in Public Schools...

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/New+Mexico+rejects+effort+to+add+creationism+to+science+standards-a0109028003

 

My sincere congratulations on number one VOTING your first opportunity and second RESEARCHING all the candidates. Again however, you and millions of young folks have a great deal to learn about how different Agenda driven groups can and have influenced your current understandings. In my days of learning it was to many people, we were headed for an ice age and only they could save us. Well they are mostly gone, we have three times the number of people on the planet and now I understand were heating up and we have to listen to new people with new ideas and new means to save the human species.

 

I don't understand what a violent religion could be, in the US. Huckabee and Palin, have strong viewpoints on more than just religion and have made their comments on abortion or other related issues, but follow the same laws everyone does. As far as I know Freedom of Religion is still followed in Alaska and Arkansas...I am whats called agnostic, don't believe in anything religion has to offer and have reached the point of no longer caring. BUT, when my folks died 01-03, one child and two ex-wives and untold numbers of religious friends, my thoughts turn to their beliefs in life, not mine.

 

Greed and Socialism; There are around 60,000 Corporation in the US that are publicly owned. They hire and pay many of the employed, don't force anyone to work for them, provide a variety of products and services we all take for granted, not to mention the millions of 'mom and pops' all over this country. Is that really greed...

 

Socialism in short is equalization of all citizens, by taking from some and giving to others, regardless who has done what for the total. It forms from greed and those that have not done well and punishes those that have. If you succeed in your future and you do something with whatever talents you have, do you honestly believe I am entitled to part of your rewards in life or that if you fail (seriously doubt) that someone should give up part of their success to make you equal to them?

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Here in NM they settled the problems years ago, NO Creationism or Intelligent Design is taught in Public Schools...

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/New+Mexico+rejects+effort+to+add+creationism+to+science+standards-a0109028003

 

I wouldn't be so sure that the issue is settled in New Mexico as you suggest it is. Just a few short days ago, Senate Bill 433 was narrowly defeated, but these attacks on our science curricula from the religious whackaloons elected to office continue despite your suggestion to the contrary.

 

http://ncseweb.org/news/2009/03/antievolution-bill-dead-new-mexico-004691

Analyses of the bill performed by various state agencies were not enthusiastic. According to the Legislative Education Study Committee's summary analysis (PDF), the Public Education Department was worried that the bill would allow the teaching of creationism, thereby inviting litigation; the Higher Education Department observed that the New Mexico state science standards already require students to understand the evidential basis for evolution; and the Office of Education Accountability questioned the bill's premises "that the theory of evolution lacks scientific validity ... and that teachers and students need protection when addressing 'relevant scientific strengths or scientific weakness pertaining to biological evolution or chemical evolution.'"

 

 

Now, please stop with your attempts to litter that intelligent young lady's mind with your grizzly old misguided approach to the world and its politics. There's a new generation coming through with some much better ideas to displace those which got us where we are today. :cool:

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I think you are. This site tracks the attempts to put creationism in our classrooms. Texas has been getting hit hard with these battles lately, as has Iowa and the Indiana region. One bill just failed by only a one vote margin, far too close for the comfort you imply in your post above. The biggest challenge is how subtly they word the bills, yet how profound the impact would be if they ever managed to slip through.

 

I implore you to spend some time reviewing the site below if you genuinely care about this subject.

 

 

http://ncseweb.org/

 

ncselogo.jpg

 

You know, prior to Dover I wouldn't have paid that much heed, but now I feel like I absolutely have to. There's just way too much ground that can be gained by that movement by a single success, however minor or reasonable it may seem. These groups are going to continue to be around and I agree that we have to pay attention to what they're doing.

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The "Republican Budget" certainly draws attention to this question... it was published without any hard numbers:

 

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2009/03/31/the_gops_pretend_budget/

 

Is this a joke?

 

Nope, but from the looks of it, they wrote it in crayon.

 

 

It sure is easy to attack the other side instead of offering ideas of your own. :doh:

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Now, please stop with your attempts to litter that intelligent young lady's mind with your grizzly old misguided approach to the world and its politics. There's a new generation coming through with some much better ideas to displace those which got us where we are today. :cool:

 

Since when has there not been a "new generation?" These ideas of which you speak, what makes them "better" or "cool?" How are they not just retreads of old failed ideas?

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Open a new thread. That sounds like an interesting discussion, just not here in the thread created by Bascule. Pangloss and I already wrestled it too far away from its intended purpose when discussing the attempts to push creationism into the science classroom. Let's explore that idea elsewhere, cool?

 

 

When will the Republicans present their detailed budget plan with numbers, does anyone know?

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When will the Republicans present their detailed budget plan with numbers, does anyone know?

 

Nothing Republicans offer would be considered by the Democratic Congress or Executive, in the first place. Then we have NO IDEA, what revenues will be, when either budget is considered. Projected revenues are all over the board and if the 'worst' become reality your talking deficits far beyond the projected 9+ Trillion over 10 years. To offer the extreme example, if in 2017 the deficit on the National Debt was 22-25T and our GDP was 15T or back to 2008's, your talking massive inflation long before 2015, a devaluation (deflation) of all assets. The inflation/deflation scenario, would make the Great Depression seem like a prosperous period in the US.

 

 

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/budget/road-to-recovery-final

 

This site offers the best Republican response, is 19 pages (need adobe) but worth a read IMO. Full of figures and some interesting Charts.

 

 

Using your own argument which I happen to agree with; In the US no law is permanent. NM, many States ans most Educational Boards today do not allow Creationism to be taught AS SCIENCE. Just as I feel, R v W, as a Womans Right, will never be overturned, teaching Creationism along side most any science, simply makes no sense.

 

As for my comments to 'Bettina'; I don't know when I have spent more time, trying to be objective to a poster. I find her comments, interesting and YES typical to this time periods youth, though she articulates MUCH better than most. As for your insults related to my age and/or opinions, yes they come from people that have long been gone, most over 200 years ago. They, not me, are responsible for a Government that has given generations of one society to change with circumstances, yet maintaining the 'Individualism Spirit' which is my hope she, you and future generations to enjoy.

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It seems as if they've grown accustomed to grandstanding and demagogery, and those are the only tools they have left to reclaim power. Will they succeed?

 

Probably. I doubt Obama will bring a Reagan like recovery, since this depression is more systemic in nature, so if he brings some success, they will argue it could have been much better and quicker with their plan. If it is seen as a failure, then they win by default as you said.

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Nothing Republicans offer would be considered by the Democratic Congress or Executive, in the first place. Then we have NO IDEA, what revenues will be, when either budget is considered.

Right... Ermmm... So, now back to my question:

 

 

When will the Republicans present their detailed budget plan with numbers, does anyone know?


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http://www.gop.gov/solutions/budget/road-to-recovery-final

 

This site offers the best Republican response, is 19 pages (need adobe) but worth a read IMO. Full of figures and some interesting Charts.

 

BTW - As per Bascules link back in post #19, as well as my comments in post #20, all they do is attack the Obama plan, as opposed to presenting one of their own, which is precisely what I'm asking for. I want numbers and maths, not pictures of smiling white people and solar panels with circles around them.

 

The link you shared is the exact document we've been criticizing for lack of detail and specifics.

 

Seriously, they may as well have written it using crayon and construction paper.

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