-Demosthenes- Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I think I've calmed down enogh to talk aobut it. It's like 2 am and I can't sleep so I'll post something. It doesn't even make any sense. Why would they even do that? And post it on the internet? These people are just crazy. I wouldn't think a person even capable of something like that. A human being. I can sympathize with the islamic people. These extremest factions kill people and are involved in terrorist activities, yet they call themselves islamic (if I'm correct). I can only imagine what it would feel like to be a good islamic person and an ignorant person puts some of the blaim on you just becasue of your religion. Similarly there are Polygamists who claim to be part of the LDS church and claim to follow the teachings of that church, which they don't. Being LDS I can sympathize with having an unliked or hated group somehow associated with my relgion. So I am hesitant to place any blaim on the iraq poeple as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 In any event, the popularity of the spectacle of violent death over the last two thousand years, from the time of the gladiators to public executions, to sharing video footage of it over the internet, suggests that for all our alleged 'progress', we haven't come very far. I don't know about anyone else here but I have no desire to watch that footage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Why would they even do that? And post it on the internet? These people are just crazy. I wouldn't think a person even capable of something like that. A human being. Why? To show that they are serious Post it on the internet? Bragging rights Crazy? A matter of perspective which they don't seem to share I like this last question enough to think it warrants it's own quotation box I wouldn't think a person even capable of something like that. A human being It is easy to things like this to any living organism especially human if this organism is reduced to a mere object. Say you have a friend and you want to kill him, well as long as you think of him as another human being, you'll have difficulties in carrying out this task. But, should you start thinking of him as: "The enemy", "Garbage", "Rat" or any of the other million such fun names, then killing him won't be a problem at all since you're not really killing a human according to your own interpretations of the names you've labeled him/her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 "They" didn't post it on the internet. The executors videoed themselves and sent the footage to an Arab TV station as a political message. Somebody has screen capped the footage and put it on a web site, from which it spread as these things usually do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I don't know about anyone else here but I have no desire to watch that footage. You`re not on your own, I flaty refuse to watch it, I know he was murdered, and that`s enough for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 You`re not on your own, I flaty refuse to watch it, I know he was murdered, and that`s enough for me in my earlier post when i said this wasn't THAT graphic, i really meant it. i promise that i do not go and look for that type of stuff, but once upon a time a jacktard friend of mine came over and wanted to show me a *cool new* website he found. and naturally w/o any warnings about what's on there. so, the stuff that he showed me, makes this pale and very insignificant in comparison as far as being graphical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 it`s not the graphical content that stops me, it`s the fact that I know it would needlessly upset me, he`s dead now, I don`t have to see it, it would serve no purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I agree fully with you and Sayonara. I've become fairly inured to the 'graphical'. But I do not want to watch a person killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 ...so remind us again why we shouldn't be hunting these people down before they do something like this? Because this happens:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3733797.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3727289.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3727833.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Interesting: "Muslims cannot tolerate the insolent attacks by US soldiers against the holy places and these crimes can only be condemned in the eyes of the Islamic world, the Shias and the Iranian people," the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said. US troops have been blockading the Iraqi city of Najaf, where they have met stiff resistance from Shia militiamen loyal to radical cleric Moqtada Sadr. ... Though critical of the Americans, Iran's clergy has stopped short of backing Mr Sadr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blike Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I havn't watched the video yet either. I have it on the computer, in case I change my mind and can't find it. I've seen pleny of horrible photos of dead bodies (especially in EMT school), but I don't particularly want to see someone having their life forcefully taken. I've read descriptions of the video, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Say you have a friend and you want to kill him, well as long as you think of him as another human being, you'll have difficulties in carrying out this task. But, should you start thinking of him as: "The enemy", "Garbage", "Rat" or any of the other million such fun names... I couldn't behead a rat. Maybe I'm really squeemish, but I couldn't do that to anthing. it`s not the graphical content that stops me, it`s the fact that I know it would needlessly upset me, he`s dead now, I don`t have to see it, it would serve no purpose. I wish I had tried to fully understand what it actually was before I watched it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I have lost all respect I had for you, Fafalone. I know that means nothing to you. I'm one of those liberals you're always on about. I'm liberal because my patriotism ends when this country feels the need to feed on hate and fear to make it great. The US has its fair share of crazies and I'm sure every country has them as well. Do you love your country when it makes war on an entire people to strike the crazies? Do you love your country when its mistakes pile up as high as the bodies of US and Iraqi citizens? I only give unconditional love to my child, and I hope it's many years before she has to see something as graphic as what you've posted in this forum. I agree with Sayonara, I have no interest in watching that video. You have made it available to people in this forum and I hope those who haven't even seen two decades of life will not be disturbed by viewing it. What an image to leave in someone's mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I have lost all respect I had for you' date=' Fafalone. I know that means nothing to you. I agree with Sayonara, I have no interest in watching that video. You have made it available to people in this forum and I hope those who haven't even seen two decades of life will not be disturbed by viewing it. What an image to leave in someone's mind. Why don't you take your hate messages somewhere else, and take Adam and trueLove with you.[/quote'] Im not sure I agree with any (both)of the admins anymore,not just fafalone but blike too. Even though I watched the video... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I have lost all respect I had for you, Fafalone. Um...I remember saying that once. Atinymonkey, why are you talking about oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted May 22, 2004 Author Share Posted May 22, 2004 Yeah' date=' nice logic there. [edit'] Berg father backs anti-war stance I wonder what Mr Berg would think of you using video of his son's untimely demise to spread a message of hate. ...because we shouldn't automatically judge anyone who's a member of a terrorist organization such as al-qaeda or the fedeyeen, they're mostly just good people. I wasn't talking about Iraqii civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Atinymonkey' date=' why are you talking about oil?[/quote'] It's one of the popular ideas, that Bush (Snr and Jnr) are driven by there interests in oil from the middle east. The both have billions invested in oil companies, that's the reason. It's my opinion that the driving reason for Bush (Snr and Jnr) to get into office was to substantiate the Bush oil interests at home and abroad. Even if that's not true, the basic reason for the invasion was to get the oil (8% of the worlds supply) which economists link with the trillions of dollar debt in the US treasury. With the trade embargo in place, the US was losing a lot (trillions a year) of money. It was a choice between risking the economy collapsing (through higher taxing and oil prices) or get the trade embargo lifted. The quickest way to lift it was to topple Saddam. Luckily, nobody liked him anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I wasn't talking about Iraqii civilians. The difference between a civilian and a solider depends on whether they defend themselves. If the US was invaded' date=' Bush toppled and your family locked up and pictures emerged of them being brutally abused, what would [b']you[/b] do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 agreed on all above points. another thing that can possibly be the cause or at least a major driving factor is vengence by bush jr for his fathers bush sr's. iraqi assasination attempt {edit: bleh, you spammer } since atinymonkey made two posts in a row, i was referring to this: It's one of the popular ideas' date=' that Bush (Snr and Jnr) are driven by there interests in oil from the middle east. The both have billions invested in oil companies, that's the reason. It's my opinion that the driving reason for Bush (Snr and Jnr) to get into office was to substantiate the Bush oil interests at home and abroad. Even if that's not true, the basic reason for the invasion was to get the oil (8% of the worlds supply) which economists link with the trillions of dollar debt in the US treasury. With the trade embargo in place, the US was losing a lot (trillions a year) of money. It was a choice between risking the economy collapsing (through higher taxing and oil prices) or get the trade embargo lifted. The quickest way to lift it was to topple Saddam. Luckily, nobody liked him anyway.[/quote'] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 ...because we shouldn't automatically judge anyone who's a member of a terrorist organization such as al-qaeda or the fedeyeen, they're mostly just good people. If the US was invaded, Bush toppled and your family locked up and pictures emerged of them being brutally abused, what would you[/b'] do? Faf, that reminds me of someone I have known for a long time. When she was younger she would pinch and goad and torment other children until they were so distressed that they either lashed out at her, giving her an excuse to hit them, or until they ran home in tears, upon which she would go around telling their friends stories about what a coward the kid was and how he/she didn't really like their friends. She was not a morally justified bastion of righteousness, she was just a bully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 The difference between a civilian and a solider depends on whether they defend themselves. This is a soldier: # One who serves in an army. # An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer. # An active' date=' loyal, or militant follower of an organization An a civilian: A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who [u']is not an active member of the military or police.[/u] Look at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I think atm was more referring to the fact that if a civilian defends their home/property/town etc from US or UK troops, they are treated as combatants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I think atm was more referring to the fact that if a civilian defends their home/property/town etc from US or UK troops, they are treated as combatants. Well you can treally call them civilians technically, if they fight they are, what militia i think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matter Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Thanks for making this thread fafalone, because I wanted to let my feelings out after seeing the video. It's brutal and disturbing. I guess that's all I have to say. As for politics, are you going to let this video effect your morale (if you have any to begin with)? Because that is this videos purpose. It hasn't effected my morale regarding Iraq at all. The tape is meant to stir resentment towards the President of the U.S. I don't think world leaders can really negotiate in a situation like this. Also, even if prisoners were released from Abu Ghraib, do you think these members would have actually released Berg? Unfortunately he was probably dead from the start. While this act was brutal I think that running a country can be brutal in itself. You have to make decisions like these, and if you make the wrong one, either way people will hate you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Well you can treally call them civilians technically, if they fight they are, what militia i think? Riiiiiiiight. "Hi, we've invaded your country, toppled your leader, tortured and abused the captives we were placed in charge of, sequestered your oil reserves, and now we're going to steal your food/occupy your village/shoot that goat of yours. If you object then you must be militia so we'll kill you." Yeah I can see how that would make everything "OK". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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