Is "free-will" a delusion?

[rueberry]

free will is a construct of our imaginations rather than a truism. that is, in the realm of physical reality. we are all interconnected by one another and our respective environments. and so are compelled to make choices and acts accordingly. however, if given the luxuary of not having such constraints placed upon us, could we still be freely choosing? i look forward to insight regarding this question of mine.

Edited December 7, 2008 by rueberry
better shape the context of my querry

[granpa]

free will=free whim

 

define 'you'.

[bascule]

The choices a conscious being makes are shaped and defined by his environment. We are affected by countless objects in the world around us simply because they're there.

[Glider]

Yes. We have 'executive override' but intitial urges and decisions are automatic.

[Sisyphus]

we are all interconnected by one another and our respective environments. and so are compelled to make choices and acts accordingly. however, if given the luxuary of not having such constraints placed upon us, could we still be freely choosing?

 

No. Any being either makes a choice for a reason or not. If for a reason, then it is compelled. However, if there is no reason, then the choice is simply random, and that is not a "free choice," either. These two options are applicable whether in our particular environment or not, or even outside of physical reality. Even a god must act either deterministically or randomly.

[padren]

I agree with Sisyphus. I will say though, from our perspective we have free will, even though it does not exist from an objective viewpoint.

 

Gilder: the "executive override" - how is that not the result of cause/effect or quantum randomness? I can see how it could seem that way, just not how it could be that way.

[Glider]

Gilder: the "executive override" - how is that not the result of cause/effect or quantum randomness? I can see how it could seem that way, just not how it could be that way.

 

I'm not sure sure where quantumm randomness comes into it as even our unconscious responses aren't random, but cause and effect (where the effects are 'pre-programmed' adaptive responses) describes our general preattentive interaction with the environment.

 

The 'executive override' comes from socially acquired (i.e. learned and internalised) standards of behaviour. The initial urges are preattentive and unconscious responses to features of the environment, but we can override them where they conflict with the socially acquired 'response set'. This requires conscious effort and that can be measured, usually as an increase in response latency.

[padren]

I'm not sure sure where quantumm randomness comes into it as even our unconscious responses aren't random, but cause and effect (where the effects are 'pre-programmed' adaptive responses) describes our general preattentive interaction with the environment.

 

The 'executive override' comes from socially acquired (i.e. learned and internalised) standards of behaviour. The initial urges are preattentive and unconscious responses to features of the environment, but we can override them where they conflict with the socially acquired 'response set'. This requires conscious effort and that can be measured, usually as an increase in response latency.

 

I thought you were implying objective free will, my comment on quantum randomness was as the only other known factor next to deterministic cause and effect.

 

More or less, I was asking for clarification on the executive override, as it seems to me that comes from a more complex 'layer in the software' but is still governed by deterministic cause and effect.

[john5746]

I thought you were implying objective free will, my comment on quantum randomness was as the only other known factor next to deterministic cause and effect.

 

More or less, I was asking for clarification on the executive override, as it seems to me that comes from a more complex 'layer in the software' but is still governed by deterministic cause and effect.

 

Are we deluded in thinking we have free will or in thinking the universe is deterministic, or both? If the universe is probabalistic, then maybe our brain is as well. Maybe we don't have as much control as we would hope, but when we chose the Oreo over the carrot, maybe we did have some probability to choose the carrot.

 

Determinism does work well in everyday physics, but doesn't work at the quantum level and doesn't work completely with humans either. Maybe we are just a complex bacteria, responding to numerous stimuli with no chance of responding differently. Maybe random changes and faulty circuits give uncertainty in our response, generating probability and the illusion of a "me" that is in control.

 

In any case, I agree with the sentiment that pragmatically, we must assume some level of control and move forward.

[rueberry]

free will is a construct of our imaginations rather than a truism. that is, in the realm of physical reality. we are all interconnected by one another and our respective environments. and so are compelled to make choices and acts accordingly. however, if given the luxuary of not having such constraints placed upon us, could we still be freely choosing? i look forward to insight regarding this question of mine.

" The road is better than the inn. " (cervantes)