khaali91 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hello I am a senior in high school participating in a competition called Engineering Design where I am to design a solution to a common problem. I have come up with the idea of creating a model of a MagLev train to act as tourist transportation and mass evacuation means for the state of Florida. I have been doing research on the Flux trapping effect, the Meissner effect, Diamagnetic materials, and super conductors and I was wondering if anyone could help suggest ideas for creating the maglev train without using supercooled superconductors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilded Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Electromagnets seem to work just fine without superconducting, judging by the ~550km/h speeds attained by Japanese maglev trains. As for whether to go with electromagnetic or electrodynamic suspension, some info can be found here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaali91 Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 Using an electromagnet: How could I get the train to stabilize on such a small scale;would I need magnets on the side of the track and train? Is there anyother way of doing this without using magnets laid down horizontally and vertically? Using a superconductor: Are there superconductors or diamagnets that don't need to be supercooled? Would it stabilize? Where could I find a reasonably priced superconductor, that only needs to lift ~100 grams or less thats about an inch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Skeptic Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I think it would be way to expensive to use superconductors along the whole rail. Also, making a rail system for evacuation as opposed to regular transport would be a huge waste of resources, and a maglev train especially so (since power can go out in emergency situations). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaali91 Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 I was thinking a track of magnets, while the superconductor would be onboard the train. The site given to me earlier states that although expensive to build it is cheaper to maintain than normal trains; evacuation is prior to the hurricane but could generators be used? (brainstorming) While high-speed maglevs are expensive to build, they are less expensive to operate and maintain than traditional high-speed trains, planes or intercity buses.[citation needed] Data from the Shanghai maglev project indicates that operation and maintenance costs are covered by the current relatively low volume of 7,000 passengers per day.[citation needed] Passenger volumes on the Pudong International Airport line are expected to rise dramatically once the line is extended from Longyang Road metro station all the way to Shanghai's downtown train depot. criticism is welcome for the design of the project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPanic Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 What is the added benefit of a superconductor? It is basically a wire with 0 resistance... that's it, isn't it? So, compared to a copper wire, it just saves some electricity, if you are running electricity through it. If you work on a small scale system, which is used for evacuation (something that hopefully doesn't happen 10 times per day), why would you want to save energy? Super conductors at room temperature don't exist. All of them need some sort of cooling - so superconductors actually consume energy if the system is idle! For any evacuation system, I suggest good old copper wire, so that the system can completely shut down if it is not operating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
npts2020 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Now if you make the trains car sized, automated, and have millions of them able to go nearly anywhere, you have just designed an entire transportation system for the 21st century that could be used anytime, especially emergencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPanic Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Well... current mag-lev technology has trouble to change lanes. The entire track must physically move. It might be expensive if you need to physically move the road in stead of having a traffic light at each crossroads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaali91 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Im talking about a small scale, functional model of a meglev train. For my project i am hoping to complete something like this except with more practicality and applied to Florida taking all criticism into consideration. So far i have found a site where i can purchase a small 1" superconductor and a large amount of magnets. I was hoping to stay away from the superconductors and try electromagnets but I cant figure how am i going to stabilize the train. Are there any other materials that have the qualities of a superconductor without the need for liquid nitrogen? Maybe Diamagnets? what do you think What is the added benefit of a superconductor? It is basically a wire with 0 resistance... that's it, isn't it? So, compared to a copper wire, it just saves some electricity, if you are running electricity through it. If you work on a small scale system, which is used for evacuation (something that hopefully doesn't happen 10 times per day), why would you want to save energy? Super conductors at room temperature don't exist. All of them need some sort of cooling - so superconductors actually consume energy if the system is idle! For any evacuation system, I suggest good old copper wire, so that the system can completely shut down if it is not operating... ^^^^ the last paragraph is basically why i am shying away from SC, i dont exactly have access to something at that low of a temperature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Skeptic Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Using extremely low temperatures with something small is really annoying because of the mass to surface area ratio. For a model you do want to stay away from superconductors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaali91 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Using extremely low temperatures with something small is really annoying because of the mass to surface area ratio. For a model you do want to stay away from superconductors. would u suggest diamagnets???:confused: with diamagnets would i need a constant propulsion system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Skeptic Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 You'll need a constant propulsion system no matter what you do. Even with superconductors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaali91 Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) Would the momentum keep the train moving for a period of time if there were stations along the track to propel the train? do you think i could employ something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T41_fkVfFNI along the roof of a tunnel through which the train has to go through so it does not interfere with the diamagnet at the bottom? except repelling so there is not that attraction at the end... . i found this which is even better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZFqkCExfRg Edited October 31, 2008 by khaali91 multiple post merged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Skeptic Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Making the train levitate is about as hard as propelling it. To propel the train, what they do is have the levitation be a little off vertical, so that the train is pushed both forward and up. In any case, levitation is more complicated than the propulsion shown in the videos above. If I am not mistaken, those videos effectively show a car rolling down a ramp (just they use magnets instead of gravity), so it wouldn't provide repeated propulsion, and would only work for one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
npts2020 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Well... current mag-lev technology has trouble to change lanes. The entire track must physically move. It might be expensive if you need to physically move the road in stead of having a traffic light at each crossroads. True, but even the smallest useful system will require a monumental amount of construction and engineering. Wouldn,t automation obviate the need for traffic lights (on the system anyway)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big314mp Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 If you drove the cars fast enough, you could get away with using one lane everywhere. Basically substituting speed for "bandwidth". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
npts2020 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 If you drove the cars fast enough, you could get away with using one lane everywhere. Basically substituting speed for "bandwidth". That is the whole purpose of automation. The same roads we use now could easily handle at least several times the current traffic volume. Instead of hijacking this thread I am going to start one on automation of the highways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaali91 Posted November 2, 2008 Author Share Posted November 2, 2008 That is the whole purpose of automation. The same roads we use now could easily handle at least several times the current traffic volume. Instead of hijacking this thread I am going to start one on automation of the highways. TY i will take everything every one said into consideration... but the real question is... how am i going to make a small toy train levitate and be able to move for a science project. i will figure out the rest of the problems when i get the train to levitate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big314mp Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I would use the magnet-levitating-over-a-superconductor effect. There's a thread here somewhere, with a video of a guy doing exactly what you are imagining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I've got this WAT where you could have a cryostatic liquid H2 distribution system with a superconductive maglev transport system built on top of it... or half inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaali91 Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 That sounds amazing. do u have any more information on it???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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