Magnethos Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Recently I have made two test to see how much hydrogen is made with hot and with cold water and I have seen that when you put an electrolyser into hot water, the quantity of hydrogen obtained and the speed of electrolysis is higher that when you do the same test in cold water. What is the main explanation to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane_alien Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 higher temperature means that water is more likely to dissociate into H3O+ and OH- ions. more ions means more conductivity meaning more gas can be produced faster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Mitchel Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Magnethos, I thought of doing the same experiment myself. The molecules of water woul be agitated by the heat. Did you do the experiment at different temps? It would seem that the best temp would be right below boiling. Thanks, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Lower viscosity will help too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 The Kw (ionic product) increases! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethos Posted March 21, 2008 Author Share Posted March 21, 2008 Magnethos, I thought of doing the same experiment myself. The molecules of water woul be agitated by the heat. Did you do the experiment at different temps? It would seem that the best temp would be right below boiling. Thanks, Jeff I have done the experiment. I have put water in two glasses and one glass was water with ice cubes (I took out the cubes before the experiment) and the other glass was hot water and that water was above boiling. Then, I put the electrodes inside and I looked at the result. Hot water was more efficient in therms of electrolysis, and cold water was a LITTLE less efficient, but the difference wasn´t so much. I have started to read about electrolysis some days ago, and I´m looking for the way to make an new electrolyser. I have seen a plasma electrolyser but I want to do something similar to put any kind of device into water to excite the H2O molecules, like ultrasound speaker or a magnetic field (or both) with the pair of electrodes and see the results. I will be putting videos and posts here... Lower viscosity will help too. What you exactly mean? and how can anyone lower the viscosity of the water because I think the water has a low viscosity but... there is a methor to reduce more the viscosity? Explain please. I will try to do this and see whats happen: this is because I´m looking for how to excite the water molecules without puttin water into hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 What you exactly mean? and how can anyone lower the viscosity of the water because I think the water has a low viscosity but... there is a methor to reduce more the viscosity? Explain please. Viscosity of liquids drops with temperature, while for gases is the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Dragging ions through the solution using an electric field is more difficult if the liquid is viscous. Heating water will reduce the viscosity and so less work will be done on those ions. If you need to waste less effort working against viscosity then you will get better efficiency . (Actually there are other complications, particularly in the case of protons in solution. It's called the proton switch mechanism.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Mitchel Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Magnethos, Thanks for the reply. Before I do my experiment I would like to know what voltage you preformed your experiment at and what kind of source? I assume it was a battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miknsk Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Few years ago I conducted experiments with 'water rheostat' to determine properties of the high-frequncy powerful transformer, and I saw that with increase of water temperature, water resistance decreases considerably. So, if the resistance decreases, the current between electrodes should rise, and the larger amount of O2 and H2 should be obtained.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethos Posted March 22, 2008 Author Share Posted March 22, 2008 Viscosity of liquids drops with temperature, while for gases is the opposite. Ok, thanks for the explanation. I know that, but I thought that you know another method to do that. Dragging ions through the solution using an electric field is more difficult if the liquid is viscous. Heating water will reduce the viscosity and so less work will be done on those ions. If you need to waste less effort working against viscosity then you will get better efficiency .(Actually there are other complications, particularly in the case of protons in solution. It's called the proton switch mechanism.) Very interesting data John... But the problem is that I don´t know exactly the method to modify the properties of the magnetic field to change and make tests and see what happen to electrolysis. I will look for information about the proton switch mechanism... thanks man. Magnethos, Thanks for the reply. Before I do my experiment I would like to know what voltage you preformed your experiment at and what kind of source? I assume it was a battery. I put a picture were you can see the adapter that I used: And the electroliser I performed other experiment with the same electrodes but with another adapter, and... I don´t know why, but the electrolysis doesn´t started. Few years ago I conducted experiments with 'water rheostat' to determine properties of the high-frequncy powerful transformer, and I saw that with increase of water temperature, water resistance decreases considerably. So, if the resistance decreases, the current between electrodes should rise, and the larger amount of O2 and H2 should be obtained.... But... How can we lower the water resistance if we don´t want heat the water? And... if the only way to decrease water resistance is hotting the water... what kind of device we should use that consume a normal power? I want say that if there is a device to hot water to the necesary temperature to improve electrolysis. I have thought about a similar device like microwaves... for that reason I want to experiment with radio frequencies and magnetic fields to see if I can reduce water resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miknsk Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 But... How can we lower the water resistance if we don´t want heat the water? May be, to add some salt? And... if the only way to decrease water resistance is hotting the water... what kind of device we should use that consume a normal power? I want say that if there is a device to hot water to the necesary temperature to improve electrolysis. I have thought about a similar device like microwaves... for that reason I want to experiment with radio frequencies and magnetic fields to see if I can reduce water resistance. why microwaves? why not to use usual heater? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethos Posted March 22, 2008 Author Share Posted March 22, 2008 May be, to add some salt? why microwaves? why not to use usual heater? Yes I know that, but I refered to any unusual method. Usual heater? Can be water warm up very near of boiling point with low power? How much energy do you think is needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miknsk Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 I mean to say, to use ohmic heater - it can be powerful enough (~1 kW) to boil large volume of water... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethos Posted March 23, 2008 Author Share Posted March 23, 2008 Oh yes, is a good idea. I will read later to get more information. I have made a video about electrolisis with cold, normal, below boiling and boiling point. I will post it after. The link of the videos: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SHMTKFCB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephir Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Because the watter as exotermic coumpound is more close to decomposition when heated. This results in lower voltage required. Of course, the higher conductivity and lower viscosity should be considered too, but the true reason is thermodynamical one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Magnethos, you could upload the videos on youtube or something like that and viewing them would be much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethos Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 Yes, the original idea was put the videos in youtube, but I tried to make a video with windows movie make but the program crashes :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Yes, the original idea was put the videos in youtube, but I tried to make a video with windows movie make but the program crashes :S I have made couple videos with WMM and I've had no trouble with that. But anyways, the elegance doesn't really matter, just upload it the way it is:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethos Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 I have made couple videos with WMM and I've had no trouble with that. But anyways, the elegance doesn't really matter, just upload it the way it is:D I don´t know why wmm crashes, but I think the problem is after instaling quicktime. In a few hours will be uploaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I'm not sure about this "Because the watter as exotermic coumpound is more close to decomposition when heated. This results in lower voltage required. Of course, the higher conductivity and lower viscosity should be considered too, but the true reason is thermodynamical one." The cell is being driven at something like 9V from the adaptor but the thermodynamic equilibrium potential is something like 1V. So 8V are being wasted. The effect of temperature on the emf of the cell will be of the order of milivolts so you might get 7.8 volts wasted instead of 8 but the reall loss is the ohmic loses in the bulk of the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davinci44 Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I'm not sure about this "Because the watter as exotermic coumpound is more close to decomposition when heated. This results in lower voltage required. Of course, the higher conductivity and lower viscosity should be considered too, but the true reason is thermodynamical one."The cell is being driven at something like 9V from the adaptor but the thermodynamic equilibrium potential is something like 1V. So 8V are being wasted. The effect of temperature on the emf of the cell will be of the order of milivolts so you might get 7.8 volts wasted instead of 8 but the reall loss is the ohmic loses in the bulk of the solution. My idea too. I experiment for a few months now with a traction battery (2V but 300 amps!!) and this works fine. I use a frequency generator, coupled to a MOSFET an try to find frequencies where water splits more easily. 250kHz is fine, 146Hz too, 21 MHz also.... The idea of using a microwave to pre-treat the water will be next, together with sending the water through a pipe in a strong bucking magnetic field before splitting it. Strong bucking magnetic fields tend to split water without any electricity!! take 2 magnets and press them as close as possible (bucking that is) and in between a strange thing occurs : a circel of small bubbles appears that rotates slightly. These bubbles are probably that compound gases (O2 and H2, or some other like Brown's gas). Results will follow if I find the time to experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnethos Posted March 25, 2008 Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 Here you can find some videos of my experiments: http://www.youtube.com/user/Nonetub Tomorrow I will upload 2 more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkshade Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Great Magnethos, you'd make a fancy video if only you'd burnt the H released> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie1001 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 My idea too.I experiment for a few months now with a traction battery (2V but 300 amps!!) and this works fine. I use a frequency generator, coupled to a MOSFET an try to find frequencies where water splits more easily. 250kHz is fine, 146Hz too, 21 MHz also.... The idea of using a microwave to pre-treat the water will be next, together with sending the water through a pipe in a strong bucking magnetic field before splitting it. Strong bucking magnetic fields tend to split water without any electricity!! take 2 magnets and press them as close as possible (bucking that is) and in between a strange thing occurs : a circel of small bubbles appears that rotates slightly. These bubbles are probably that compound gases (O2 and H2, or some other like Brown's gas). Results will follow if I find the time to experiment. Hi, I have interest in the bucking magnet theory. Does any one some info on that? br steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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