smoking and smoking related illness

[Revenged]

I can't argue the progressive nature of *nicotine addiction* or what it does or does not do for any particular group. IMO, it has more to do with doing something, than any real relaxation. Myself, I have only smoked 60 years, never really much more or less then than now and in doing some jobs, would find myself going days w/o smoking or even the realization I had not. The withdrawal idea, what you see in drugs is not what people go through, that I have known, read about or would expect if I decided to just quit and must be individual. Most smokers that I have talked to, on this subject, don't ever wake up to smoke or if woke for other reason, then light up.

 

of course withdrawal symptoms occur... you obviously haven't tried to quit or perhaps you aren't smoking enough... try and go without smoking for 4 weeks then you'll see what it's like...

[SkepticLance]

A press release from the University of Otago on smoking.

 

The tobacco death burden in developed and Eastern European countries is equivalent to the impact of a 9/11-type terrorist attack every 14 hours, according to a newly published study by University of Otago public health researchers.

 

Estimated annual deaths from tobacco were approximately 5,700 times greater than those from international terrorist attacks, according to public health researchers Dr George Thomson and Dr Nick Wilson of the University’s Wellington School of Medicine and Health Sciences.

 

The researchers compared the estimated 1.9 million people in developed and Eastern European countries who died from tobacco in the year 2000, with the 3298 lives lost in international terrorist attacks in these same countries between 1994 and 2003.

 

“We found that the absolute annual burden from tobacco use was highest for the United States at 514,000 deaths per year in 2000, which is equivalent to the impact of an 9/11 type terrorist attack every 2.1 days,” says Dr Thomson.

[jackson33]

of course withdrawal symptoms occur... you obviously haven't tried to quit or perhaps you aren't smoking enough... try and go without smoking for 4 weeks then you'll see what it's like...

 

Not to the degree, people expect or as portrayed by media. My point, was on this issue, was that IMO smoking is a *something to do* habit, opposed to some compulsion to feed a chemical into the brain. This could go to having something to do with the mouth, I don't know, but people in quitting do tend to replace it with gum chewing, food or something to keep the mouth busy.

 

 

SLance; Since I have run out of ways to show how figures were computed and I don't like taking individual cases to justify or confirm the total, I will suggest you review some legal cases. It was determined later in the process that *class action* could not be used and the individual cases almost w/o exceptions have come to different conclusions for death, or that the user had ample warning.

 

Now lets take the 2000, cause for death statistic. In 2000 and still pretty close, the US records 6000 deaths every day. This means 1 in 4 (about 1500)of all deaths were from smoking or the use of tobacco products. My contention and purpose for entering this debate is that this a contrived figure.

If you add up estimated cause for deaths per day of all the reasons people die for medical, accidental or natural causes, that figure is also 6k per day.

The smoke related cannot be determined IMO.

[John Cuthber]

"My point, was on this issue, was that IMO smoking is a *something to do* habit, opposed to some compulsion to feed a chemical into the brain."

 

I know a number of ex smokers who don't share your opinion. The medical establishment tends to agree with them. The success of nicotine patches also indicates that this is a real chemical addiction.

 

"The smoke related cannot be determined IMO."

Statisticians and epedemiologists do not share your opinion on this.

[Sayonara]

Not to the degree, people expect or as portrayed by media. My point, was on this issue, was that IMO smoking is a *something to do* habit, opposed to some compulsion to feed a chemical into the brain. This could go to having something to do with the mouth, I don't know, but people in quitting do tend to replace it with gum chewing, food or something to keep the mouth busy.

I can assure you that nicotine withdrawal symptoms are quite unpleasant. They simply would not exist without a chemical dependency.

 

Not that there is no habitual aspect to quitting smoking; it's a game of two halves.

[jackson33]

"My point, was on this issue, was that IMO smoking is a *something to do* habit, opposed to some compulsion to feed a chemical into the brain."

 

I know a number of ex smokers who don't share your opinion. The medical establishment tends to agree with them. The success of nicotine patches also indicates that this is a real chemical addiction.

 

"The smoke related cannot be determined IMO."

Statisticians and epedemiologists do not share your opinion on this.

 

The reason, I mention a dislike in taking certain cases to prove/disprove an argument is so many people are influenced outside sources, feeling the end results of something was from that source. I probably know as many who quit giving *cold turkey* as there means. Here again many recall no withdrawal problem, with an occasional mention of coughing up stuff...

 

Currently a big problem is *body weight* with hundreds of diet, remedies and pills offered to combat or assist in losing weight. Each and that means all of them, mention two things. You have to want to lose weight and you have to exercise. The only known cause for losing weight is to consume less calories than you use in activity...EAT LESS. The same hold true for smoking or for that matter most any addictive drug, legal or otherwise....JUST STOP.

 

Not only does the medical profession, disagree with my opinion on this issue, 75% of the general public does. I can use their figures on official deaths in the US are (yearly-daily) and let you compare to the actual numbers of smokers, overweight, aged or other problems the human has.

 

Heart 654,000-1791; Cancer 550,270-1507; Stroke 150,147-411, Respiratory

123,884-340; Accidental 108,694-300.

 

IMO; If no one on this planet had ever smoked a cigarette or ever heard of tobacco, the figures would be the same, the cause for being one other reason mentioned above...

 

Reminder; I do not promote smoking and feel for many reasons people should quit if for any reason they feel it best. My arguments relate to the ways and means the whole issue evolved. Even here its the previous issues handled in the same manner and the ones I see coming.....

[Sayonara]

I probably know as many who quit giving *cold turkey* as there means. Here again many recall no withdrawal problem, with an occasional mention of coughing up stuff...

But this doesn't mean that the people who report (sometimes severe) withdrawal symptoms are making it up.

 

Most smokers have withdrawal angst between cigarettes, for goodness sake.

 

People who successfully quit cold turkey are certainly a group to be envied, but they are hardly representative.

 

The only known cause for losing weight is to consume less calories than you use in activity...EAT LESS. The same hold true for smoking or for that matter most any addictive drug, legal or otherwise....JUST STOP.

For most, the experience of "just stopping" is entirely unpleasant. Yes, you could successfully get every smoker to stop this way, but you would have to enforce it well because I guarantee the effects would send most of them running straight back to lovely fags. And, in fact, frequently do.

 

If we have the medical technology to alleviate such suffering, why not use it? To not do so is just stupid.

[jackson33]

I can assure you that nicotine withdrawal symptoms are quite unpleasant. They simply would not exist without a chemical dependency.

 

Not that there is no habitual aspect to quitting smoking; it's a game of two halves.

 

Since you comment infers personal experience, what could I say. Again I can only tell you what others have told me, over years of interest on the subject.

To complicate matters, its now said drug addicts by chemical can be withdrawn from dependency w/o ill effects. Smokers may just continue a meal or eat more when that built up urge to smoke take hold. I really don't know, but many do think they felt no symptoms. Many couples I have known do quit together, where one will gain weight and the other not. Many older folks are addicted to simple habits, like playing card, chess or something simple to the average person. They often die, when this hobby is taken or no longer available. Any habit or practice in life can have the same outcome. This tells me the need for substance in life, smoking, playing card or what have you can be beneficial regardless of consequences. Cigar smokers, take this idea to the limits...Clubs, magazines, type (makers), gatherings, reunions and the like....

[jackson33]

S; Pretty much covered your last post, while answering your first. I have been told, I have no sense of smell. Possibly this has influenced my opinions and many folks I talk with may have low degrees of this sense. In arguing my points, the idea of personal responsibility has been lost. Anyone who has started the habit in the past 50 years, has had some idea of what could be an end result. I recall displays of *Smokers Lungs*, which were not pretty, but it didn't influence me a bit. For what ever reason I do die of, society will call it from *tobacco products*, regardless what kills me. This to me is the fallacy of the entire issue. You have apparently quit, I assume with some problem. I can only admire you or any person, that makes a decision, sticks to it, until over.

[armygas]

you've got it the wrong way around... nicotine is a stimulant

That depends on the dose, nicotine in large doses is a ganglionic blocking agent and will depress neurons as it will continue to keep acetylcholine receptors depolarized (much like succinylcholine at the NMJ). But at small doses it is a stimulant via an initial receptor depolarization but the quantities in the synapse are not sufficient to continue to activate the receptor (thus allowing it to reset and reactivate).

[Revenged]

That depends on the dose, nicotine in large doses is a ganglionic blocking agent and will depress neurons as it will continue to keep acetylcholine receptors depolarized (much like succinylcholine at the NMJ). But at small doses it is a stimulant via an initial receptor depolarization but the quantities in the synapse are not sufficient to continue to activate the receptor (thus allowing it to reset and reactivate).

 

yeah, i already know about depolarisation blockade... i know you use succinylcholine as a muslce relaxant prior to intubation because it causes desensitisation of nACh receptors and i did talk about desensitisation of nAChRs because of high nicotine levels in my previous post...

 

i was more confused about why nicotine intake causes upregulation of nAChRs within the central nervous system... any idea why that happens?

[armygas]

yeah, i already know about depolarisation blockade... i know you use succinylcholine as a muslce relaxant prior to intubation because it causes desensitisation of nACh receptors and i did talk about desensitisation of nAChRs because of high nicotine levels in my previous post...

 

i was more confused about why nicotine intake causes upregulation of nAChRs within the central nervous system... any idea why that happens?

 

Here is a good explanation on why it may happen:

 

http://athena.louisville.edu/~pprowe01/research_interests.html

 

One feature of nicotine's effects is that, immediately following exposure to nicotine, there is a loss of activity towards the drug. This phenomenon is known as desensitization. One possible consequence of the desensitization process is that long-term nicotine use appears to cause the body to maintain additional nicotinic receptors upon which the neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, acts in an attempt to counteract the loss of activity. This increased number of receptors is called receptor upregulation.

[Revenged]

Thanks for the link... it seems the researchers don't know why it happens either...

 

"Although nicotinic receptor upregulation has been demonstrated after chronic nicotine administration as well as cigarette smoking, neither the physiological significance nor the relationship with the desensitization process are known."