# Short Exposure to Second-Hand Smoke

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I just wonder, has anyone here changed their opinion on any of the matters that have been debated as a result of what they have read?

Absolutely. What would be the point in coming here otherwise? IMO anybody who gets on a message board who isn't interested in what other people have to say should really question their reasons for logging in. Save everyone the effort and just send yourself an email.

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I just wonder, has anyone here changed their opinion on any of the matters that have been debated as a result of what they have read?

I know I have changed my mind on several things. Mostly, an appreciation of other's viewpoints and enhancements of my own. This is just another step to critical thought. Sometimes I take positions on here that I don't even believe just to work out a different perspective. It's nice when someone agrees with you, but worthless all the same.

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I still mainatin that the people doing something odd have the responsibillity to ensure that it does not adversely impact on others. It is not the responsibillity of everyone else to pander to them.

I agree with your premise. But, in a smoking establishment, you are the odd one. It is not their responsibility to pander to you and make you a non-smoking section or put their cigarette out.

I can walk around my house naked; I can't do that in a shop, even if I own it.

But you should. If you own it, you should be able to be naked in it. The laws don't agree with me, but I'm used to that...

How many times do I have to point out that the partitioning does not, in my experience, work?

But, you missed the key word - appropriately. It should be partitioned appropriately, so it is truly separate from the non-smoking area. I worked this out by thinking of it as mustard gas - which someone here brought up a while back. If you were to have a mustard gas inhalation area, it would have to be sealed off and ventilated so non-mustard gas inhalers won't get...um..killed from second hand mustard gas.

No, I don't, but society does. Here in the UK it has made that decision.

Pointing out that something is, doesn't make the logical argument that it should be. I don't believe that anyone has the right to enforce their ideas of offensive behavior onto other people. This is a flaw of majority rule. It's a small flaw considering the scope of things, but it is a flaw nonetheless.

What if we all decided that fat people are offensive and should be shot on site? As long as the majority of us agree then...?? Majority rule is not ethical or right, it's just a consensus - that's it. That's also why we have a bill of rights - rights that cannot be overturned by a majority rule.

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ofgreenstar said :

I've decided to quit on many occasions due to health risk involved with smoking. But then i don't. I don't even make it a day. I smoke about 7 to 10 a day

Face it. You are addicted. Mark Twain said that giving up smoking was easy. "I've done it a thousand times."

The real problem with smoking is the starting. Once started, as ofgreenstar has found, it is very, very difficult to give up, and only a few with real strength can do it.

What I am going to harp on is the need to discourage people from starting. Lots of teenagers start smoking in their blithe belief that they are immortal and nothing harmful will ever happen to them! The tobacco companies certainly encourage this illusion. If we do not do everything we can to disillusion those idiotic teenagers, then the carnage will continue. Deaths from tobacco outnumber deaths from car accidents in my country by about 20 to 1.

Beyond the deaths, there is illness of sufficient severity to massively reduce enjoyment of life sooner or later to pretty much all serious smokers. If people cannot see the need to discourage kids from starting, then those people are not able to think rationally.

The whole business of second hand smoke pales into insignificance against this much more important principle.

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The real problem with smoking is the starting. Once started, as ofgreenstar has found, it is very, very difficult to give up, and only a few with real strength can do it.
\

This is true. You have to do it for yourself too, not anyone else. Hint: Don't make it a big deal. That was the secret for me anyway. When you go on and on about how miserable you feel, or constantly thinking about it and vocalizing how hard it all is - that just makes it more difficult. People moan and groan to make it easier to fail. They want to set themselves up for an easier slip and disappointment. This applies to many habits that require will to terminate.

Just curious if anyone else has done this...but I actually picked out this one lady here at work. She's in her forties I think, but she looks like she's in her 60's. Leather face, reeking of smoke and ash, talks like a man and completely out of breathe just walking to and from the smoke hole - this is like maybe 50 feet or so. You get on the elevator with this woman and all you smell is nasty ash and all you hear is her trying to breathe - gargly and all.

This woman is gross, period. And smoking has caused almost all of it. Her skin, voice, breathing (or lack thereof) - and I internally add depression, shame and hopelessness to her case. She looks freaking miserable.

Anyway, I picked her out and see her everyday and I never, EVER want a cigarette again. She is my rock and she has no idea...

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What if we all decided that fat people are offensive and should be shot on site? As long as the majority of us agree then...??

You were talking about majority rule weren't you? Sorry to point this out, but fat people out number skinny people...

And btw, in Canada smoking in any indoor public place is banned, and smoking near entrances (within x amount of feet) is also banned. I can't remember off the top of my head how far you have to be, but it's different for alot of places.

I think it's great myself. I really don't see why we have to even bother accomadating people who feel it is necessary to fill their own lungs with toxic fumes. Nevermind the fact that small amounts of second hand smoke have little effect...

Another great thing about Canada, is that because we have universal healthcare the government taxes cigarettes to hell and back... to paint you a picture, a pack of cigarettes costs about $12.00 CAD (~$11.00 USD, or £5.50). That's about $4380.00 CAD ($4015.00 USD, £2007.50) a year assuming you smoke a pack a day.

Anyone want to move to Canada?

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The problem is that they think it's reasonable to sit near me and light up. Also, while from my point of view it's a choice, but from the point of view of some asthmatics these smokers make places like bus stations no-go areas.

I still mainatin that the people doing something odd have the responsibillity to ensure that it does not adversely impact on others. It is not the responsibillity of everyone else to pander to them.

Let me give you an insight into the mind of your average smoker.

You have to understand two things:

1) how close a smoker can sit to you before you find it unreasonable is determined by your subjective views,

2) like everyone else, smokers are (i) not telepathic, and (ii) a bit lazy.

If you press a smoker for an answer, you will normally find they freely admit that lighting up near someone before asking if it is OK is fairly inconsiderate.

BUT. They will also, in all likelihood, happily move away or stub it out if ask them to. It really is all it takes in most cases.

Clearly this is not an ideal scenario, and if you have read my posts you will have seen that I wish other smokers would be more considerate. But on the other hand, it is hardly nicotine Armageddon either.

Haezed, I don't want to step into Sayo's argument

I am not really trying to propose an argument of my own, I am attacking a flawed anti-smoking argument.

Personally I share many of the concerns about smokers' behaviour, even if it is all highly generalised, a bit of a concerted demonisation effort, and not really anything to do with the OP.

It's just that - as you know - I can't stand to see people using broken logic to mount an attack on people's rights.

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You were talking about majority rule weren't you? Sorry to point this out, but fat people out number skinny people...

Uh oh...I guess that screws up my analogy doesn't it?

I think it's great myself. I really don't see why we have to even bother accomadating people who feel it is necessary to fill their own lungs with toxic fumes. Nevermind the fact that small amounts of second hand smoke have little effect...

No kidding. Same with grease and fat. It should be banned. Why should we accomodate people who feel it necessary to clog their arteries with grease and fat? Never mind the fact that their size and weight adds to the fuel and food burden of the country (all while a large portion of the world starves) - and they take up too much room on the bus.

Anyone want to move to Canada?

Nah, I prefer freedom - that includes allowing stupid people to be free to be stupid.

I hate smoking, and really can't stand most smokers - but why must we judge each other's vices? I blame lack of critical thinking and intellectual laziness. No one is taught to understand, or empathize with other's life choices - unless it's about homosexuality. They teach tolerance towards race and gender - but then stop short of anything else.

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Sounds good. Lets ban grease and fat... it'll create a new black market economy for organized crime...

Call me when I become a fat dealer k?

Oh and I'm mostly doing a personal gripe on smokers, since I don't like the smell of cigarette smoke. I agree generally that stupid people should be allowed to do stupid things... but then again, suicide is illegal isn't it? I'd consider that the ultimate stupid thing to do

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but then again, suicide is illegal isn't it? I'd consider that the ultimate stupid thing to do

It shouldn't be illegal. It may be the ultimate stupid thing, but it could also be the ultimate gift to the gene pool.

I prefer philosophical consistency to blind indoctrination of the law.

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You were talking about majority rule weren't you? Sorry to point this out, but fat people out number skinny people...

And btw, in Canada smoking in any indoor public place is banned, and smoking near entrances (within x amount of feet) is also banned. I can't remember off the top of my head how far you have to be, but it's different for alot of places.

9 meters which is 8 meters too far in the cold. Well I quit smoking 3 weeks ago or so it doesn't really matter. Most of it does make sense, for me it's not so much of a bother to go outside when I did smoke, I would walk to a spot where there were no people for the sake of the smell, and I won't smoke around children.

but really the smell isn't that bad, I find some peoples cooking skills in my apartment building far more offensive.

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Here's a personal (and true) story.

Some years ago, NZ had no laws stopping smokers in public places. However, it was a custom for restaurants to set aside smoking and non smoking areas. I was having a meal with some friends, deep within the non smoking part of the restaurant.

Some people sat down in the table next to us (also non smoking) and a patron asked the waiter for an ash tray. I expected the waiter to say no, but the pusillanimous bastard trotted off and came back with an ash tray. After a minute that man lit up. I had, by then, a significant amount of liquid courage in my veins, and I was not about to put up with this.

I stood up, and stepped to his table (only one step). I stood there looking him in the eye until he started fidgeting. He obviously thought I was about to hit him. (I am over 6 feet tall and 240 pounds). I reached out and plucked his cigarette from his fingers; and broke it in half, extinguishing it in his ash tray. I then told him in firm (if slurred) terms that this was a non smoking area.

The response of the restuarant management was somewhat interesting. They obviously also thought a fight was in the offing. I was apologised to most obsequeously (as was proper) and given several free drinks. The offender was also apologised to and told that, sadly, he could not smoke.

Is there a moral to this story?

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Yes - use the power of Voice.

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