5614 Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 I've been very busy recently, although when I do pop in I do think it is less active than it used to be, back in the good ol' days! I'm not sure why this is. I'm busy, that's me covered, but I come back and it's relatively quiet here, which is sad. I don't know why this is. Does vB do a daily post count we can access? If so was it really 38? Or as blike suggested, a lot more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timo Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Does vB do a daily post count we can access? If so was it really 38? Or as blike suggested, a lot more? Given the number of new and/or updated threads was ~38/day the posts probably were a few more. Counting posts/time-unit shouldn´t be too hard: Take the total number of posts (currently 305,787), wait a little, take the difference between the new and the old number and divide it by the time waited to get the daily count. There are also a few old ppd numbers floating around for comparison. You might scan Martin's posts for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royston Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Like 5614 I've been very busy of late, so I've just been writing the odd post here and there, but I don't see a period of inactivity as anything to be worried about. I'm sure the activity fluctuates quite a bit due to a myriad of reasons. As for arrogance and people being called idiots et.c, well that's hardly new is it, there's always been an element of that at SFN, especially in the pseudosciences, speculations et.c, personally I find it very entertaining...it's best not to take it too seriously, it's a forum, and the beauty of that, is nobody really knows who you are, I could be an abnormally intelligent cross dressing chimp for all you lot know, so who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 blike makes a very good point about the difference between ignorance and idiocy, but I think part of the problem is the "idiot" label. It's too broad and gets applied to too many people. Is the person asking a question here without having researched an answer elswhere first? Is the person just being obtuse? Is it a case of one little misstep that has led them to an incorrect conclusion? Are they simply hanging on to a idea they've convinced themselves is right? Have they sunk even lower and are attempting to prop up their arguments with fallacies? All of these instances can receive the "idiot" label and I think that's a mistake. Maybe we need to stop labeling everyone who doesn't argue well as an "idiot". It's way too easy and is often too hastily applied. Perhaps we need to drill down and identify some behavior that leads to some of the worst problems. Fallacy-users are a big problem. We're always chastising fallacious logic but you have to understand how insidious it really is. Whether it's ad hominem (personal attacks, Flaming), strawman or one of the Appeals (to Authority, to Tradition, etc), logical fallacies attempt to prop up a bad argument and often look really good. They create a situation where you can't let someone get away with bad information but you take the thread off on a tangent if you call it out. Fallacy-users put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. One of the most difficult people the staff has to deal with is the "Preacher". I won't name any names but I can think of two right now. The Preacher has nothing to do with religion. The Preacher simply wants to bring everyone around to his/her way of thinking. They argue that they are merely stating their "opinion" and often get a lot of member support when criticized. But the Preacher has no intention of debating the ideas he/she throws out. In fact, they defend their arguments just like any of us would, the way any good scientist puts an idea up for commentary and criticism. But the Preacher really isn't interested in discussing his ideas, he's interested in gathering followers and believers, and wants to "teach" instead of learn. He is the one who jumps to fallacies quickest when his arguments are criticized and then diverts whole threads by seeming to defend his arguments when he's really just criticizing the criticism. The Preacher wastes everyone's time leading us by the nose in circles. Unfortunately, forming really good arguments and rebuttals takes more time than a lot of people have. I guess we all need to keep that in mind before we call someone an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPL.Luke Posted November 23, 2006 Author Share Posted November 23, 2006 also at least in the physics forums some of the best debate gets started by people who mistakingly believe themselves to be experts. For instance there was a thread on ion rockets not long back, where someone who knew nothing about rockets started posting from the standpoint of expertise. I posted what atual works on a rocket (without saying anything about the original poster) and me and him debated for a while, and in the end he raised some interesting points which made me re-evaluate my knowledge of rockets. I got swansont to come in, and then we ended up deriving the rocket equations in that thread. in my 1000 posts here that would have to be my favorite thread, just because it turned into a very informative thread on rocketry, and it started from the "idiocy" that eveyone's critocizing. we need a couple "idiots" around to make us want to debate, in one of my first threads here I tried to disprove potential energy, I failed miserably but nobody ever said that I was an idiot, and some members spent alot of time with it. Now I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum trying to educate people in the illogical(ness) of their oppinions on science. but the key is that you shouldn't call them an idiot. Eventually they'll come around or leave, if they come around we have anouther valued member, if they don't then they leave and who cares. It's hard to count the number of people who got banned for challenging relativity and other such things, even though they were polite about it and always made new threads to discuss their ideas without hijacking other threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutZ Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 A person should be able to ask any damn question, or say any mundane thing he/she wants. If they ask a "stupid" question or present a "stupid" idea they should get ignored, thus the only way to get attention is to formulate a good post, which makes it completely pointless whether or not some deserves or to what criteria one can be called an idiot. I still think ruling with an Iron Fist (Temp Ban style) would work the best though lol. The probablity that everyone will get along, no one getting offended, etc is slim. Thats why I say just ignore it. The Mods can't catch everything, Even if they cracked down on people then you have the problem of "I am being oppressed!", conversations will be so focused and controlled they won't be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 If they ask a "stupid" question or present a "stupid" idea they should get ignored I am not sure even of that. I would hope that we would try and answer 'stupid' questions too, because then maybe we have added a bit of insight into someone's life. I have no problem with answering basic questions. What I do object to is when someone clearly doesn't read your response to their question and then rambles on at length about how this must be a end of quantum mechanics or some such. That is just annoying. I also confess that I get bored answering the same question over and over, so I tend to avoid answering questions which have been asked reasonably recently. To be honest, this is just laziness on my part - I am not one of these people who think posters should perform a comprehensive search for info before posting a simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Yeah I've never been comfortable with the "go do a search, dummy" thing either -- I think we're pretty good about that here. You see that all the time on discussion boards and the commonality seems to rise in proportion to the amount of traffic. One example of this that I have to deal with on a regular basis is the AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com), which is one of the largest home theater boards. If you ask just about ANY question, you are immediately pummeled with half a dozen "go search you dummy" replies before you can blink. It's very unwelcoming, because it means that unless you're a regular, EXTREMELY current and frequent visitor (so you know exactly what people have been talking about deep inside existing threads), you can't post anything on any subject at any time. And in my view the search feature in vBulletin actually requires some skill and experience to use effectively, and its results page has ALWAYS been very confusing. It can be very daunting and over-informative (not to mention counter-intuitive) until you understand what it's trying to do. It's great that it's in common use, so people can apply that skill on other boards (the AVS Forum I mentioned above uses the same software). But if they don't have that skill/experience then they may actually have a very hard time finding information. Another common happening with vBulletin is that people will run a search, find nothing, and then post a message, only to be met with "Search Scorn", either because the information is there and they just missed it, or it's not there and the Search Nazis are skimming and shooting from the hip. There's nothing wrong with telling people that we have threads on that subject already extant, though, you just have to be polite about it. Also there's nothing wrong with passing by a thread and hoping that someone with a little more time and/or patience will respond to it. It doesn't make you unfriendly, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 I also confess that I get bored answering the same question over and over, so I tend to avoid answering questions which have been asked reasonably recently. To be honest, this is just laziness on my part - I am not one of these people who think posters should perform a comprehensive search for info before posting a simple question. As do I, the amount of threads asking "How do i make Sodium" or "how do i make KNO3" really annoy me also, I`ll either Not answer or post UTFSE! it`s not Laziness at all, I Am one that beleives people should at least TRY to use our search engine first! that IS afterall what it`s there for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutZ Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 What I do object to is when someone clearly doesn't read your response to their question and then rambles on at length about how this must be a end of quantum mechanics or some such. That is just annoying. I also confess that I get bored answering the same question over and over, so I tend to avoid answering questions which have been asked reasonably recently. To be honest, this is just laziness on my part - I am not one of these people who think posters should perform a comprehensive search for info before posting a simple question. I have expertise in...well nothing. I can slightly understand what it must be like though, day in and day out the same questions over and over and over and over again, You probably even have to find 5 different way to explain the same thing because what works for one guy doesn't work for the other. I am actually quite amazed at how patient the experts are here. I don't think this place is bad at all for rudeness, but I guess this type of place attracts individuals with a superiority complex at some point, It's no Billy- Bob's Guns and Cool Stuff Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettina Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 In what sense was it a mistake? This forum was never intended to be a one-stop shop. The fact that it took on that characteristic was an unintended consequence of creating a religion and politics forum in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I did not mind having the forums on this website. Nonetheless, when they festered up I had absolutely no qualms about getting rid of them. They are not science forums and as such they exist on this forum soley at our pleasure. Thus, to call it a mistake for removing them is misdirected. As you'll find, our purpose statement includes no such discussion. I speak for myself here, and not any other staff nor the site. Ignorance isn't chastized, idiocy is. There exists a large and quite discernable divide between the two. I have little patience for those who refuse to even make an attempt to cross the bridge. The only thing it should tell you is that they refused in some capacity to follow our rules. I do not care how nice or informative they are on other forums. I wasn't going to answer this because its a moot argument anyway but the sense of the mistake, which was getting rid of the religion forum, is that its not that way in real life. In the real world, science and religion are intertwined tightly.... especially by the creationists who have managed to infiltrate the school boards in several states. So, by stopping the debate here is another win for creationism to apply those red stickers in our science books. The divide you speak of is much narrower than you think, and I know for a fact that some have left because of a few board experts. You can remove the red bars form their signatures, but not the arrogance. There have been little posts from me lately for that very reason. I have nothing against you. Its your board and I only offered an opinion based on the OP and my observation as a teenager. Maybe when I get older, I will see a different board but right now I liken it to the golf club on Caddyshack. Again, I'm having a bad day and not picking on you or your board. I still intend to visit if allowed to although asking questions here is another thing. Bettina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gib65 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Bee, I think what you say is very true, every word. My only criticism is that you're telling someone else to fight your battles for you. The divide between religion and science is a big one, and a serious one, maybe even a dangerous one, but the fact of the matter is Blike already made his purposes very clear. He intends for this to be a science forum and not a religion vs. science debate forum. You can say whatever you want about Blike's ignorance of the "bigger problem", but I leave that for you to say - it won't be me. Maybe when I get older, I will see a different board but right now I liken it to the golf club on Caddyshack. Now I'm going to have to watch that to see what you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big ez Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Hi all, Yes, I am one of those idiots that you are speaking of. I know hardly anything about science. I do know some though. As you can see by how many posts I have put up I mostly read what is going on, I do not answer many. I have an interest in science though and like to learn all I can. The only thing I see that the problem here is, is that a lot of people here are so sure about themselves, are so sure they are right. But, what if they are wrong? Could they even fathom that? I mean with the possible findings they are discovering in quantum mechanics these days, we could all be wrong. All I am saying is whom has given whom the right to call anybody an idiot. I feel the only dumb question is the one not asked, no matter how juvenile and simple it is. What I am saying is, is that I am impressed with how knowledgeable everyone is here. If at some point I do prove myself to be an "idiot" as you so put it, and ask an idiotic question, try and bear with me, I am learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettina Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Bee, I think what you say is very true, every word. My only criticism is that you're telling someone else to fight your battles for you. The divide between religion and science is a big one, and a serious one, maybe even a dangerous one, but the fact of the matter is Blike already made his purposes very clear. He intends for this to be a science forum and not a religion vs. science debate forum. You can say whatever you want about Blike's ignorance of the "bigger problem", but I leave that for you to say - it won't be me. Now I'm going to have to watch that to see what you mean Gib65... I never meant to imply Blike was ignorant because he is surely not and as I already posted, that divide is not as big as some think but religion was only one aspect of my argument and thats a lost cause now anyway. The other is seeing certain experts treat newbies like trash and get away with it every single time. Some newbies are afraid to post for fear of getting stepped on... and they will. Caddyshack was a comedy which depicted an elite group of stuffy golfers that revered their private club and looked down on newcomers as invading trash. The other thing is why is it so hard to answer someones questions in a civil tone without telling them that these questions have been answered before and to use the ($%&$#) search function. If thats the attitude then they would be better off going to Wiki or another forum like I do. The sad thing is that a forum is supposed to be a nice place to meet with people with similar intererests that are friendly like the teen forum I go to. I haven't seen that here in awhile which is why I haven't posted... I still like a lot of the people here very much (like you) and miss what they have to say but anway...... have a nice life. Bettina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 The other is seeing certain experts treat newbies like trash and get away with it every single time. Could you provide an example of what you are refering to? I think our experts answer questions on their subject with a lot of patience and I have never seen anyone called an idiot for asking a reasonable question. Since this is a science site it would be nice for you to provide evidence of your assertion. Perhaps a link or two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 The other thing is why is it so hard to answer someones questions in a civil tone without telling them that these questions have been answered before and to use the ($%&$#) search function. If thats the attitude then they would be better off going to Wiki or another forum like I do. That Bettina is so Very unfair Im surprised at you would you Really like a forum with 10,000 posts all asking the same question, often using exactly the same words!? I didn`t think so either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genecks Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Would you rather this forum be like biology-online.org, Bettina? Sometimes there are neat and productive things that occur. Most of the time, however, that site is plagued with homework questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Bettina, I know you have your reasons for feeling the way you do. I didn't like splitting the P&R forums off either, but for different reasons. As for letting a few people here drive you away, I hope you're not looking for perfection in the forums you visit, places where everyone agrees and no one is ever cranky. As someone who often espouses some passionate arguments I know you realize some people won't agree with you just as passionately (or perhaps even more). I just hate to see you staying away from intellectual congress with thousands of fellow SFN members because a few rub you the wrong way. Large populations are bound to produce a few snotties and that's not always a bad thing. Even when civility is abandoned there are still opportunities for learning, even if it's learning how you *don't* want to be. Staying away from all of us because of a few of us just isn't reasonable, imo. In your own words, ... its not that way in real life. In the real world, ... you don't quit school because one of your teachers is a jerk to you. You don't stop going to a church because a few members speak their minds in a way that bothers you. And in the real world of internet forums, you just have to put some people on your Ignore List. Hopefully your Buddy List is a lot longer. I think your Caddyshack reference is misplaced. We're probably more like a college fraternity / sorority that treats newbies like pledges until they've been hazed too much and finally stand up and say, "Enough! I belong so knock it off!" And forget about you for a moment, what about us? You're not a selfish person but you're denying us your unique POV by staying away! For everyone, I think this is a good wake up call for longtime members to take it a bit easier on newcomers with basic questions. I just hope newbies and oldtimers alike will give us the chance to change and not give up on us. After all, we're only e-human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 I'd like to point out that if you have reason to believe that a member of staff is causing problems and is being mean to anybody, you should private message an administrator immediately rather than just keeping it to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob000555 Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 I think your Caddyshack reference is misplaced. We're probably more like a college fraternity / sorority that treats newbies like pledges until they've been hazed too much and finally stand up and say, "Enough! I belong so knock it off!" Perhaps that’s what’s keeping SFN from the constant stream of new members it used to enjoy. Just look at the first few pages of http://www.scienceforums.net/showthread.php?t=14640 from post 17 and on; has anyone herd from weldermanx since? Then there’s simply calling someone stupid as an excuse to not answer(post number 10 in http://www.scienceforums.net/showthread.php?t=23554) Or it could be just as simple as crushing all of someone’s ideas or saying every thing is rong. When you can click on find all posts by ****** in someone’s profile and my then half are negative it really shows how bad its getting . If you look throe some of the older posts from back when there were lots of posts/day you find things like this: Booo, when did we start becoming anti-opinion nazis? We may disagree just like any other user, but you won't get in trouble for it. BE LIKE SAYONARA AND TELL US WERE WRONG PLEASE> If we could just get back to that it would be grate. The divide you speak of is much narrower than you think, and I know for a fact that some have left because of a few board experts. You can remove the red bars form their signatures, but not the arrogance. There have been little posts from me lately for that very reason. It doesn’t even have to be experts it could be anything from prominent members to a noob. Moderators are human too so thy sometimes forget its them that new members look at them when deciding wether to stay or wether to join at all. Things like “I don’t mean to be a spelling Nazi” , “I’ll see to it personally that your banned” , or “Read a book!!” DO NOT help Then again the problem could be something much simpler I noticed a slumped after the site came back from its down time, compounded by theology.net. I rely hope I’m just thinking too much and that is the problem. (edit added): But all in all I think it’s a problem of ignoring the golden rule, and of arrogance, among a few key members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gib65 Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 This is just my personal opinion, but I think some people should just grow a backbone. If you get insulted by someone else on this or any forum, suck it up! You can either a) ignore it or b) reply with an equally witty comeback or just say flat out that you've been insulted and don't think comments like that are necessary. And then... just keep posting about the topic at hand! Of course people shouldn't be nasty on forums, and I'd hope that no mods or admins are responsible for this, so if you really feel that someone is overstepping their bounds with demeaning comments, tell a mod! Do what you have to do and then move on with life! PS - Sorry for the rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Yep. Use the "Report This Post" button, everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 How did this thread turn from one about inactivity, into one about bitching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob000555 Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 How did this thread turn from one about inactivity, into one about bitching? People are speculating as to the route cause of the inactivity and it’s often negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Oh good, for a moment there I thought it was going to be something subtle that you have to read the whole thread to appreciate. Phew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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