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blackhole123

"the atheist nightmare"

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Yes natural bananas are small and inedible. It was only through a mutation (which it is known when it occured) and selective breeding that the bananas that we eat are like they are. Yes the eating banana was design... by humans :D

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Yes natural bananas are small and inedible. It was only through a mutation (which it is known when it occured) and selective breeding that the bananas that we eat are like they are. Yes the eating banana was design... by humans :D

 

But look at HOW humans designed it: by Darwinian selection!

 

I submit that Darwinian selection is the ONLY way to design. The issue is whether the method is used by intelligent entities or happens without them.

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But look at HOW humans designed it: by Darwinian selection!

 

I submit that Darwinian selection is the ONLY way to design. The issue is whether the method is used by intelligent entities or happens without them.

 

We use grafting and we are inserting jellyfish genes into other animals. I am sure we will figure a smarter way to design than trial and error. If we will be able to figure it out, I am sure a God like intelligence would have done so as well.

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That's not the question, though john. Obviously, a being of limitless power could have used natural selection, or anything else. The problem is that, we can't prove God's existance, let alone if he uses natural selection as an evolutionary process.

 

That has to come down to a matter of personal belief.

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We use grafting and we are inserting jellyfish genes into other animals. I am sure we will figure a smarter way to design than trial and error. If we will be able to figure it out, I am sure a God like intelligence would have done so as well.

 

It's still Darwinian selection. In this case the selection is going on in human minds before they are doing the grafting or gene transfer. IOW, there are several possible graftings that can be done -- variations -- and we select among those variations the one we are actually going to perform in the real universe. It's still trial and error.

 

I am somewhat familiar with how green fluorescent protein is transfected into other animals. And it too is Darwinian selection. First there were several possible candidates of fluorescent proteins to use. An initial Darwinian selection was performed in human minds against the environment of available fluorescent filters. Then further selection was performed as to which fluorescent proteins were the brightest when transfected.

 

In addition, there is also Darwinian selection going on in terms of the promoter. In the area of vascular research, there were at least 10 different promoters -- all proteins thought to be expressed when endothelial cells differentiated. These were picked -- by Darwinian selection -- in the minds of the researchers among all the possible promoters. Only those promoters possibly fit the environment of being expressed by only endothelial cells. In the event, 3 of the promoters didn't work. Either they really weren't expressed by endothelial cells or it turned out they were expressed by other cells as well. And they were eliminated as candidates to transfect GFP into mammalian cells.

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That's not the question, though john. Obviously, a being of limitless power could have used natural selection, or anything else. The problem is that, we can't prove God's existance, let alone if he uses natural selection as an evolutionary process.

 

That has to come down to a matter of personal belief.

 

This isn't the point, either. We are not discussing the existence of God. We are talking about how to get design. And I am submitting that Darwinian selection is the ONLY way to get design. Even if God designs, He is going to sort thru the possible designs in His mind against the environment He has mentally set up. He will select those designs that fit the environment. Only after that design process has completed will He manufacture the object.

 

Humans do the same thing. It's still Darwinian selection, only it is taking place in a mind rather than only in the physical universe. "Natural" selection refers to Darwinian selection operating solely in nature.

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