Prejudice or Perspicacity? Racist or Realist?

[Jim]

This is a tough one for me' date=' since I also believe that it is wrong to judge an entire group on the actions of some of it's members. Terrorism and the fear it engenders have largely made us numb to reactions like Bettina's. Too many are saying that, since a disproportionate percentage of terrorists are Islamic, that means Islam is to blame for terrorism. That wouldn't be allowed here if you said that, since a disproportionate percentage of US prison inmates are black, that means blacks are to blame for crime. It worries me that this prejudice doesn't bother enough people.[/quote']

 

I'm coming to the conclusion that the majority of even intelligent educated Americans do not really understand what makes racial bigotry so uniquely pernicious. Words like bigotry, discrimination and racism are thrown around without thrown around willy nilly without an appreciation that not all forms of discrimination are inappropriate or what, in particular, makes racial discrimination so universally condemned.

 

What I really love, are posts that just assume someone is a bigot in a side conversation with people that agree on the same point. It's kind of like when Hanity or Colmes gets his fill of someone he disagrees with and switches to the guest with whom he agrees.

 

I hate the idea that we are making more enemies every day by condemning Islam instead of terrorism.

 

Sounds like a results oriented philosophy. We are afraid of the 1.6 billion Muslims so, for god's sake, let's not be critical. Maybe it will take a few Bill Cosby type Muslims who have the courage to address the problems. In the mean time, our self censorship is going to keep us from winning any war of ideas.

 

Part of what separates us from terrorist animals are the ideals we adhere to. If we forget our ideals or cast them aside to fight fire with fire, what makes us different?

 

Yes, I think we can all agree that we should not sacrifice our ideals, our traditions of dissent, free expression or our belief in the separation of church and state. I think I'll throw in here a healthy respect for the truth. When we sacrifice that, we lose quite a bit of ourselves.

 

Regardless, I will be conferring with the Admins on policy regarding Islam and the Racist/Prejudice warning and it's implementation, but I know we don't need to flame or use ad homs to make our points. Respect your fellow SFNers, please.

 

I think this discussion should be open, not in private between "Admins." We all have a stake in this community and if this topic is going to be censored, we all need to know.

[Jim]

On many occasions Bettina has offended myself as well as others and frankly, I'm fed up with it, which is why I said that I had nothing more to say.

 

I thought I would leave once but only because of what I perceived as a censorship of ideas. That is the most offensive thing that can happen on this board and your leaving over Bettina expressing her opinions is an attempt to muzzle opposing points of view. You may even succeed. We'll see.

[Sayonara]

I think this discussion should be open, not in private between "Admins." We all have a stake in this community and if this topic is going to be censored, we all need to know.

It's a discussion about our liability, not your censorship. I doubt you would be that interested tbh.

 

 

This thread is generating some heat, so I'd like to add to Phi's comments by reminding all involved parties that we have strict policies on racial and prejudiced remarks.

 

Please think before you type, and always use the "preview" button.

 

If you think someone is feeding you "emotive BS", don't feed it right back. Identify it in your reply and ask for clarification.

[Jim]

It's a discussion about our liability' date=' not your censorship. I doubt you would be that interested tbh.

 

 

This thread is generating some heat, so I'd like to add to Phi's comments by reminding all involved parties that we have strict policies on racial and prejudiced remarks.

 

Please think before you type, and always use the "preview" button.

 

If you think someone is feeding you "emotive BS", don't feed it right back. Identify it in your reply and ask for clarification.[/quote']

 

Okay, let me ask for clarification. Your liability? How do Bettina's posts expose you to liability? Has a lawsuit been threatened?

 

Please clarify: Look at my posts on the Islamic Radicals thread on the philosophy topic and tell me if I have been bigoted, prejudiced or otherwise exposed you to civil or criminal liability.

[Sayonara]

Okay, let me ask for clarification. Your liability? How do Bettina's posts expose you to liability? Has a lawsuit been threatened?

I am not picking Bettina out, and it would hardly be appropriate to air any ongoing legal discussions in public.

 

Please clarify: Look at my last post on the Islamic Radicals thread on the philosophy topic and tell me if that is "bigoted" or exposes you to liability.

It clearly isn't, so I don't see any problem there.

[Bettina]

While it's always a good idea to take deep breaths, I do hope you will continue to express your opinion and "call it like you see it."

 

I don't see how. What I see tends to offend.

 

Bee

[Severian]

I don't see how. What I see tends to offend.

 

Then it is probably wise that you stop posting here. It was good (and healthy) that you came to that conclusion yourself.

[Jim]

I don't see how. What I see tends to offend.

 

Bee

 

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men and women do nothing. That said, if they will not let me say what I believe, I would leave. I'm searching here for the line they have drawn with you because I do not understand it at all. I hate to see you leave but I do not blame you at all at this point. I know you said not to defend you, but that is not my nature.

 

Court's deplore the chilling self-censorship effects of vague prior restraints of speech. This is not a free speech area because it is controlled not by the government but by private individuals somehow convinced that they can have liability for allowing free expression. However, the value of this forum is directly related to the free speech allowed even as I appreciate the high-tone that is often insisted upon.

 

Sev, you are a prince. Here's some salt. Why don't you find some more wounds to rub it in?

 

Bettina is offensive? I respect your intellect but irony is completely lost on you.

[ParanoiA]

Then it is probably wise that you stop posting here. It was good (and healthy) that you came to that conclusion yourself.

 

There's nothing good and healthy about cencorship due to other's sensitivity issues with race and religion. This debate is largely along racial lines. Arabs and Jews. Of course there's going to be negative criticism addressed to one race or another.

 

Too bad folks are more interested in being PC rather than being truthful. Kind of a let down seeing as how this is a scientific forum. I thought the intellect here would be far superior to such shallow concepts.

[Bettina]

Then it is probably wise that you stop posting here. It was good (and healthy) that you came to that conclusion yourself.

 

I am an honorable person so there will be no need for a ban. When the admins ask me leave I will leave without causing trouble or making a comment.

 

Bettina

[Jim]

I am an honorable person so there will be no need for a ban. When the admins ask me leave I will leave without causing trouble or making a comment.

 

Bettina

 

You were asked to leave???

[ParanoiA]

Phi' date=' I really have no reason to believe that Bettina is not bigoted. Tetrahedrite compiled plenty of quotes from Bettina that seem to indicate that she admits it herself.

 

I read those quotes and I would agree with almost all of them except that Christianity had its time slaughtering folks for belief and so forth and now they prefer good ole fashioned propaganda pursuasion.

 

Yes, the Arab world does seem to be obsessed with death and religion. There doesn't seem to be a diplomatic bone in their bodies. When the entire region erupts and people literally die - over a cartoon mind you...geez

 

I could go on but my wife is on my ass about getting off my ass so I got to split, sorry.

[Bettina]

You were asked to leave???

 

No, of course not. I was just commenting on the meaning of severians post.

 

Bee

[Phi for All]

Everyone's talking about censorship and banning and free speech in this thread because I expressed a concern about doing my moderator job fairly. I'm thinking I should split these comments off into a thread of their own asking if people think it's prejudicial to judge all of Islam based on what radical Muslims are doing. Or why it's OK to discriminate this way because terrorism is so horrible.

 

I would like to understand because no one has convinced me that it's OK to let it slide in this instance. Policy is what I have to make sure we can discuss these issues among so many varied members with intellectual honesty. It has less to do with what's offensive and more to do with not setting double standards and hopefully creating an atmosphere where members can understand without feeling threatened by narrow mindsets.

 

Shall I split these comments off to start the thread?

[john5746]

 

Shall I split these comments off to start the thread?

 

Not a bad idea. The thread topic isn't even being discussed. Personally, I don't think the terrorism "problem" needs to be debated as much as a solution. What are some proposed solutions? Thinking about the solution may bring to light the actual problem.

[Severian]

There's nothing good and healthy about cencorship due to other's sensitivity issues with race and religion.

 

I think self-censorship is rather healthy. If you think you are going to offend someone with your comments, then before posting you should ask yourself if you really want to offend them. If not, don't post.

[Phi for All]

Split from this point in Who won? (Israel and Hezbollah) to discuss whether posts that suggest Islam itself is to blame for terrorism are prejudicial or not. If your opinion is discriminatory towards a group, should it matter whether the group is gays, blacks, Muslims, or Poles? We have a policy against Prejudiced / Racist remarks to prevent people from being judged by what their "group" does. Do remarks like this against Islam count as a violation?

 

I think we'd have to prove that the vast majority of Muslims will only accept conversion or death before we can judge individual Muslims by their whole religion. If we can't then we need to stop blaming all of Islam for terrorism.

[Sisyphus]

I think the distinction should be made between speaking against the group (i.e. Muslims) and speaking against the ideaology (i.e., fundamentalist Islam). Only the former should be forbidden, I think. Of course, it should also consist of reasoned arguments, and not just "Islam scares me and I hate it," but that's a different issue.

 

EDIT: Only the FORMER should be forbidden! Oops.

[darkangel199]

Its not right to down an entire religion because of some of their members do bad things. Free Speech comes with responsibility and consequences, if you cant face the consequences then don't say something. Racism in any form should not be tolerated. And people should not get special treatment, if someone says something that violates the rules of the forums then they should be punished. Saying muslims are evil and Islam is evil is meant to be inflammatory and those kinds of statements should not be tolerated. Same if someone said it about christianity or Athieism.

[Bettina]

Ok.... Could someone tell me if these wordings are acceptable here or are they considered racist and biggoted. I took them from MSNBC and CNN. Those of you who are offended could help me change them to something else.

 

What wording would you change.

 

-Islamofascists and the strict sharia law has made prisoners of women and children.....

 

-Radical Islam is becoming a major problem.....

 

-Islamic Militants raided a small village killing several women and children.....

 

-Islamic Terrorists Target Kids During Toy Giveaway...

 

-Islamic suicide bombers kill 10 and wound 50 in Jerusalem today...

 

-All creationists are evil...

 

And Darkangel... you can call me an atheist all you want.

 

Bee

[ParanoiA]

Everyone's talking about censorship and banning and free speech in this thread because I expressed a concern about doing my moderator job fairly. I'm thinking I should split these comments off into a thread of their own asking if people think it's prejudicial to judge all of Islam based on what radical Muslims are doing. Or why it's OK to discriminate this way because terrorism is so horrible.

 

I would like to understand because no one has convinced me that it's OK to let it slide in this instance. Policy is what I have to make sure we can discuss these issues among so many varied members with intellectual honesty. It has less to do with what's offensive and more to do with not setting double standards and hopefully creating an atmosphere where members can understand without feeling threatened by narrow mindsets.

 

Shall I split these comments off to start the thread?

 

Are all KKK members guilty of beating or terrorizing minorities? Of course not. But that also doesn't mean that their views on white power are harmless and it's just extremists poisoning an honest and decent way of life.

 

There are things about the Muslim religion that separates it from most' date=' in my opinion and apparently others too. It has a racist and oppressive tone its teaching. No, that doesn't mean that every Muslim is therefore a terrorist, but it [i']does[/i] mean there is an inherent problem with their belief system - much like the KKK.

 

And no I don't think it's racist to point that out. I think it's dangerous not to...

[ParanoiA]

I think self[/i']-censorship is rather healthy. If you think you are going to offend someone with your comments, then before posting you should ask yourself if you really want to offend them. If not, don't post.

 

I simply don't agree. I'm not going to make my sensitivity issues everbody else's problem. People waste too much valuable space and time toying around with verbage just in case somebody might get offended. If you're offended, it's your own problem - not the supposed "offender".

 

But then, I'm an extremely tolerant, live-and-let-live libertarian. I don't agree with the liberal PC movement. I'm more interested in the meat and potatoes, not how they're presented.

[Sisyphus]

Ok.... Could someone tell me if these wordings are acceptable here or are they considered racist and biggoted. I took them from MSNBC and CNN. Those of you who are offended could help me change them to something else.

 

What wording would you change.

 

-Islamofascists and the strict sharia law has made prisoners of women and children.....

 

-Radical Islam is becoming a major problem.....

 

-Islamic Militants raided a small village killing several women and children.....

 

-Islamic Terrorists Target Kids During Toy Giveaway...

 

-Islamic suicide bombers kill 10 and wound 50 in Jerusalem today...

 

-All creationists are evil...

 

And Darkangel... you can call me an atheist all you want.

 

Bee

 

I'd probably do away with the last one altogether. And the first one is grammatically incorrect, but I guess that's not the point. None of those are particularly bad on their own, though they don't make a "case against Islam" and shouldn't be used as such. It might be a good idea to be more specific than just "Islamic." Perhaps "Salafist" or something, where appropriate.

[darkangel199]

Ok.... Could someone tell me if these wordings are acceptable here or are they considered racist and biggoted. I took them from MSNBC and CNN. Those of you who are offended could help me change them to something else.

 

What wording would you change.

 

-Islamofascists and the strict sharia law has made prisoners of women and children.....

 

-Radical Islam is becoming a major problem.....

 

-Islamic Militants raided a small village killing several women and children.....

 

-Islamic Terrorists Target Kids During Toy Giveaway...

 

-Islamic suicide bombers kill 10 and wound 50 in Jerusalem today...

 

-All creationists are evil...

 

And Darkangel... you can call me an atheist all you want.

 

Bee

 

 

I never said Atheist was a bad thing. i am sure their are some bad ones but i never said all were bad or evil or anything else like that. And furthermore i would not make an absolute statement like that, because it would merely be bait to stir people up into a flame war. All i am saying is people should be held responsible for their statements, especially if you can't prove that the statement is true. saying Islam is the cause of all the worlds problems and they all should be wiped out is wrong and can only be seen as a statement meant to inflame and hurt other people. Free speech has consequences, if you can't deal with them then you should watch what you say. ( i know no one said that but i am just using it as an example)

[darkangel199]

Are all KKK members guilty of beating or terrorizing minorities? Of course not. But that also doesn't mean that their views on white power are harmless and it's just extremists poisoning an honest and decent way of life.

 

There are things about the Muslim religion that separates it from most' date=' in my opinion and apparently others too. It has a racist and oppressive tone its teaching. No, that doesn't mean that every Muslim is therefore a terrorist, but it [i']does[/i] mean there is an inherent problem with their belief system - much like the KKK.

 

And no I don't think it's racist to point that out. I think it's dangerous not to...

 

 

you're wrong. Justl iek any religion their are people who take certain parts of the religion and use it to brainwash people. Their are racist tendencies in most religious teachings if you look deep enough. Are there some bad muslims, sure there are, are all muslims bad because of the few? not a chance.

 

I used to live in the deep south of the U.S. and i ran into entire towns where black people were not welcome. I have been harassed, embarrassed and held unlawfully for no good reason. I have seen white people grab their purses as i passed by for no reason. Yet i don't run around forums preaching about how evil and racist white people are. youk now why because i know all white americans are not racists and hateful pigs even though a percentage of the white american population is.

 

If i came on here and said that white people are truly the cause for the worlds problems and i can provide links to show white people causing problems would that still justify me saying something like that? hell no it wouldn't. And if i said it i would be ready for any consequence this private forum, which i dont have any right to be on or say anything on decided to deal out to me.