surviving on a vegan diet

[gib65]

What does one need in order to survive on a vegan diet? I mean, does the vegan need to take any supplements or monitor their food intake carefully? Is there anything in meat, milk, or any other food groups that's essential for health and survival that doesn't exist in the fruit & vegetable food group?

[Mokele]

Vitamin B12 is the first thing that comes to mind; it's technically produced by bacteria, and is really only availible through meat, eggs, and milk. Various purported algal sources don't have a bioactive version. Vegans would need to find a chemically synthesized version as a supplement.

 

Also, as with any restricted diet, one has to pay attention to the amount of various minerals and vitamins (though it's nothing that can't be dealt with by supplements) as well as ensuring adequate fat, protien and carbs (though the latter isn't really a problem for vegans).

 

Basically, it's the reason I'll keep monitor lizards but not iguanas; when feeding exclusively veggies, you need to spend a fair bit of mental energy and time ensuring the proper foods are eaten and in the right way. I swear, I've fed 150 carnivores/insectivores in the time it takes to make one bucket of iguana chow.

 

Edit -- I just checked on this, and it is the same for humans as iguanas: spinach isn't a great idea. The oxalates in spinach bind to calcium and prevent it's absorbtion, though I think humans don't have as many problems from it as iguanas. This just goes to show how you need to be more careful when on a vegan diet, as such effects as swamped when feeding omnivores, but can be a problem with herbivores.

 

Mokele

[ecoli]

Vitamin B12 is the first thing that comes to mind; it's technically produced by bacteria, and is really only availible through meat, eggs, and milk. Various purported algal sources don't have a bioactive version. Vegans would need to find a chemically synthesized version as a supplement.

 

Such things are readily available in health markets.

 

 

Edit -- I just checked on this, and it is the same for humans as iguanas: spinach isn't a great idea. The oxalates in spinach bind to calcium and prevent it's absorbtion, though I think humans don't have as many problems from it as iguanas. This just goes to show how you need to be more careful when on a vegan diet, as such effects as swamped when feeding omnivores, but can be a problem with herbivores.

 

Actually, squeezing a bit of lemon juice on the spinach helps with the calcium absorption. Even better than spinach, though, is kale, which as a ton of calcium (though again, I think the lemon juice is needed)

[Mokele]

Oh, of course, but my point is that those on vegan diet (or really any restricted diet) need to be extra-careful and pay attention to things that others can take for granted.

 

I've not heard of lemon-juice thing (probably because citrus is bad for reptiles, and that's where I've learned about feeding herbivores from). Kale is excellent, as are collard and mustard greens; those three are the basis of just about any good herbivorous reptile chow, and are probably similarly good for humans.

 

Mokele

[Bluenoise]

A bonus about the lemon juice too. It makes spinach taste 1000x times better. Has a way of smoothening out that overpowering earthy taste.

[gib65]

Thanks everyone.

 

Now I have another (related) question.

 

Why can't one get protien from fruits and vegetables? From what I understand, meat, eggs, milk, and everything from the meat group are the source of protien. But it occurred to me that everything that undergoes mitosis must contain protien, even fruits and vegetables. It's what's required for biological growth, right? So why can't plants be a good source of protien?

[Mokele]

Oh, yes, plants contain protien, and some contain quite a lot. The difference is that muscle is mostly protien, even compared to other cells, and eggs and milk both have lots of protien since that's what the baby animal needs to develop.

 

So it's not so much that there's no protien in plants as that there's just not as much of it, gram for gram, as in meat.

 

Mokele

[Dak]

Question:

 

we dont, stricktly speaking, need to eat protiens: we need a source of amino acids.

 

Our metabolism can convert carbohydrates, like sugar etc, and the odd sulphur/nitrogen molecule, into amino acids, so why cant a veggie just have a larger-than-average carb intake and synthesyse their own amino-acids (and thus protiens)?

[Skye]

We can't make essential amino acids.

[bascule]

Beans and nuts are a good source of protein. A lot of vegan substitute-type foods will use tofu as a base, which is rich in protein.

[MattC]

Some great points here! As a vegan of over 10 years, I suppose I should add a little from my experiences:

First off, B12 is the only thing you won't find in a strict vegetable/fruit/grain/etc diet. Fortunately, it is found in numerous processed foods (cereal, for instance), and nutritional yeast (not bakers yeast) has a good bit of B12 (this yeast has a great and almost cheesy taste that lends itself well to a huge variety of dishes, from topping on popcorn to the cheesy taste in vegan lasagna). You dont need much at all, so B12 shouldn't be a problem. Theoretically, humans could obtain plenty of B12 by eating a lot of raw foods straight from the ground - this is how cows get their B12. Our fruits and veggies are typically washed quite a bit, however, so it's not a good way for a modern man to get the vitamin.

 

The other thing I wanted to point out relates to the difficulty of adopting a vegan diet. I made the switch at 13 years of age and my parents were of no help in planning my diet. It didn't take long for me to learn the ropes, though, but the thing to remember here is that ANY diet would be hard to manage, if our culture didn't prepare us. Even with plenty of education about various healthy diets available, too many people try to live off of McDonalds or, in general, adopt an unhealthy diet that is not balanced. Health consequences of various magnitudes follow.

For a vegan, unless research is done, the constituents of a healthy diet are not obvious, and it's unlikely anyone around you can be of much help. In this sense, it takes much more attention to what you are eating. After a short while, however, it is as easy as any other diet - I know because I am a Vegan still, after all these years, and I spend no more thought preparing my meals than anyone else.

 

Regarding protein: animal protein sources tends to have all of the amino acids, while plant protein sources tend to be deficient in one type of amino acids (but the type varies from protein source to protein source). The simplest way to ensure you get all of the amino acids you need is to mix two of the following, preferably in the same meal: Grains, nuts, legums, and seeds. Most vegans eat plenty of rice and plenty of soy, and many eat plenty of nuts and seeds as well. I have never heard of a protein deficient vegan - in fact, it seems likely that vegans get more protein than your average american meat eater, as we avoid things like the white bread that comes with burgers and hot dogs, instead choosing to eat breads with whole grains and seeds as toppings. And both rice and soybeans really are great sources (though hardly the only or the best, among vegan foods) of protein.

[ecoli]

Corns and beans contain all of the essential amino acids, so no problem there. And what MAttC said... very good post.

[In My Memory]

Gib65,

What does one need in order to survive on a vegan diet? I mean, does the vegan need to take any supplements or monitor their food intake carefully? Is there anything in meat, milk, or any other food groups that's essential for health and survival that doesn't exist in the fruit & vegetable food group?

I've been a very strict vegan since Aug 1999, and I'm very healthy, and I can safely say there arent any nutrients in animal products that you cant get from a vegan diet

 

The B Vitamins are found in yeasts, seaweeds, and raw veggies; protein is found is basically everything; calcium is abundant in dark leafy greens.

 

The key to being healthy on a vegan diet is planning, until you get a routine going. Also, it doesnt hurt to take a supplements if you need a safety net. I actually took vitamin supplements for a few months until I felt comfortable with my own routine, and just like MattC I dont even think about the foods I cook anymore.

 

Why can't one get protien from fruits and vegetables? From what I understand, meat, eggs, milk, and everything from the meat group are the source of protien. But it occurred to me that everything that undergoes mitosis must contain protien, even fruits and vegetables. It's what's required for biological growth, right? So why can't plants be a good source of protien?

Basically, the idea that you cant get protein from veggies is a health myth. Theres quite a bit in soy, nuts, seeds, beans, legumes, bagels, brocolli, rice, peanut butter, potatoes, whole grain cereals. Everything has protein in it, so much protein that its really a non-issue for every vegan I've ever met. And almost everything thats a good source of protein is a good source of iron too, especially stuffed peppers (yum!)

[GutZ]

What if you are into weightlifting or highly active (like..lifting objects(s) 30-40+ kgs quite frequently everyday)? Does it work differently then? i.e. does one persons needs change in that situation. I've been trying to clean up my food intake and replace things with more natural foods, more specificially from fruits and vegetables, so I am just curious.

[MattC]

I don't work out too much right now, but back in college I was at the gym for about 30-60 minutes a day, every day, lifting weights and running. I definitely think that it is a myth (to a limited degree) that you need a ton of protein if you're a body builder. It seems to me to be mostly marketing of GNC-type products that leads to this, but really you don't need that much more. As a vegan, though, protein is very, very easy to obtain. As I said, the only thing a vegan eating a balanced diet should think about is B12, and that can be taken care of with supplements, nutritional yeast (which is great for taste reasons, anyhow), or just eating cereal for breakfast.

 

If you're looking for some great energy food to prepare you for a hard day of physical labor, nothing beats a pasta dish. You can add fried tempeh and cashews as a side, and use a sauce with nutritional yeast, tomatos (crushed or puréed), diced onions, olives, and some shredded green leafy veggies.

[SkepticLance]

If you are working out a lot, or engaged in any major athletic pursuit, the main extra thing you need is energy. ie carbohydrate.

 

However, if you plan to be a strict vegan, be very careful. Vegan diets are potentially deficient in a number of things. Vitamin B12 has been mentioned, and is certainly one of the most likely causes of problems. Also the fact that we need 20 amino acids, and no one plant can supply all 20. A mixture of protein rich vegetable foods are needed.

 

Also potentially deficient is iron, zinc and calcium. A lot of people think that animal protein is unhealthy. Not true. It is only excess that is unhealthy - just as anything in excess can be bad. The best way to ensure a completely balanced diet is variety. And that should, ideally, include a little animal protein. A bit of red or white meat, fish, or low fat dairy food can save an awful lot of problems balancing a vegan diet.

 

To give you an idea of the hazards (they are worse for young people), take a look at the following reference, which shows a child that dies due to a vegan diet being too restricted.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/13/1023864318459.html

[ecoli]

However, if you plan to be a strict vegan, be very careful. Vegan diets are potentially deficient in a number of things. Vitamin B12 has been mentioned, and is certainly one of the most likely causes of problems. Also the fact that we need 20 amino acids, and no one plant can supply all 20. A mixture of protein rich vegetable foods are needed.

 

As I said before, corn and beans together have all the essential amino acids, and its not like those are rare foods.

[MattC]

That article made me mad. Some people are just idiots... refusing medical treatment for their obviously ill kid? Of course, in defense of alternate diets you can find plenty of examples of people dying for other, more conventional diets that are illapplied, and of course the number one killer in this country is heart disease - which is associated very strongly with poor diet (and smoking - but not nearly all of the people dying of heart disease smoke).

 

As for iron, zinc, and calcium ...huh? I have read from numerous sources that some of the best sources of all of these minerals are vegetables (for zinc, pumpkin seeds are really rich - but who eats those regularly? fortunately it is found elsewhere). My own blood tests (for what it is worth), taken about a year after becoming vegan (when my diet had stabiliized somewhat) showed somewhat high levels of both iron and calcium, and zinc (and everything else, B12 included) were perfect. Obviously the B12 is water soluble.

 

I can see zinc being a problem if you don't eat a balanced diet. However, it is present is plentiful quantities (not as much as certain meats, though) in beans, lentils, yeast, nuts, seeds, and cereals.

 

I do think that caution should be applied. There aren't many cases of people having severe health effects due to a vegan diet, but I have personally heard many people say they tried out a vegetarian or vegan diet and felt unhealthy. I imagine it is due to somethink akin to the potato-chip-vegetarian syndrome. I myself had this problem, for a brief period after I transitioned. This involves replacing meat with something fatty like potato chips, rather than changing the entire diet to include a variety of green leafy vegetables (every day), a mixture of at least grains, legumes, and nuts every day (seeds are always nice to throw into the mix, but usually people only eat these in breads), and possibly a supplement at first, if one is not feeling up to the research to learn about the foods.

 

Though I myself am a vegan, I do not necessarily recommend the diet to people. Instead, I think most people looking into vegan diets for health reasons should consider simply changing their diet to include more of the afore mentioned foods and much, much fewer of the nutrient-poor and fatty fast foods that dominate. Moderation is the key to good health, and a diet with a great deal of variety but also consistency. If someone wants to cut out meat and fish or just meat, that can be done after getting into the habit of eating lots of vegetables and different plant-protein sources.

[ecoli]

the stupidity of those parents stems from their religion, not their vegan-ism. So, its a poor example to warn vegans of the 'dangers' of not eating meat.

[Mokele]

Instead, I think most people looking into vegan diets for health reasons should consider simply changing their diet to include more of the afore mentioned foods and much, much fewer of the nutrient-poor and fatty fast foods that dominate. Moderation is the key to good health, and a diet with a great deal of variety but also consistency.

 

I'd like to note that this is actually what I've done, to an extent. I still eat a lot of meat, but switcheing from fast-food burgers and the like to chicken subs and such has already brought about noticable health benefits.

 

Moderation and watching the diet are definitely the key. *Anything* in excess can cause problems, and anyone's dietary habits can have negative consequences (especially if they don't pay any attention to what they eat).

 

Mokele

[YT2095]

Zinc`s not Too much of an issue in a vegan diet, plants naturaly take up zinc as part of their Own immune system, in fact I regularly (once a year) add Zinc Sulphate (1g per 5 litre watering can) on my veg garden. zinc defficiency`s largely through over working land without crop rotation, and is a cause of Prostate swelling and sometimes cancer in a low zinc diet. whole grains are a good source of zinc (if grown properly) and Nuts are fantastic Brazil nuts beieng one of the best, Pumpkin seeds are high in Zinc too.

[GutZ]

I'd like to note that this is actually what I've done' date=' to an extent. I still eat a lot of meat, but switcheing from fast-food burgers and the like to chicken subs and such has already brought about noticable health benefits.

 

Moderation and watching the diet are definitely the key. *Anything* in excess can cause problems, and anyone's dietary habits can have negative consequences (especially if they don't pay any attention to what they eat).

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

Me too kinda. I was amased to see the difference. Not only in aspects of energy but strength (or use of more potential), and specific activity pains.

[SkepticLance]

The reason I posted that rather horrible reference, about the child dying, was not to say a vegan diet is beyond the pale. It was more a warning about extremism. Personally I believe that the vegan diet, though it can be healthy, is not as good as a diet which includes small amounts of animal protein. Although it is probably healthier than a diet with too much meat, and especially animal fat - a la McDonalds!

 

As I understand it, the main problems that stem from vegan diets are lack of vitamin B12 and too little iron. The best source of dietary iron in assimilatable form is actually red meat. A lot of iron in vegetable foods is not readily assimilated by the human body. This is of special concern to women who are in their menstruating years, thus regularly losing iron. The consequence is that anemia is very common among vegan women. It is important for these women to either eat a little meat, or take iron pills. If you are too extreme in your views to do either, then it is vital to concentrate strongly on foods that have a bit extra iron.

 

Among third world women, who are forced to eat a vegan diet through poverty, and especially those who subsist mainly on rice, the World Health Organisation estimates 100,000 die each year in childbirth due to their bodies being weakened by anemia.

[bascule]

Caloric restriction has been shown to be one of the single most effective approaches to increasing lifespan. The theory, as I understand it, is the more calories you consume, the more free radicals are produced by your mitochondria, and the more genetic damage occurs, bringing about early cell death, or cancers.

 

Vegan diets are typically much lower in calories. I'm personally a fish eater, but have been considering going vegetarian due to concerns with mercury poisoning. As an Immortalist, I'm interested in taking whatever steps I can to extend my lifespan in the short term until radical, nanotechnologically-based life extension technologies become available. Fortunately, I'm young enough that I think radical life extension technologies will be developed before I've aged too much. I can't say the same for other prominent immortalists like Kurzweil, who's in his late 50's.

[SkepticLance]

Actually caloric restriction is only PROBABLY a means to increasing life-span. It has been tested in a number of mammals but not humans as yet. It appears to have an effect of switching off one key gene, related to insulin activity. There is one chemical substance known to do the same - resveratrol, found in red wine. This has been dosed to mice, and shown to increase their lifespan in a way similar to caloric restriction. The dose used (in human terms) is equivalent to the resveratrol in 70 bottles of red wine per day! Doubtless resveratrol tablets will be available soon. However, it is still unproven whether they work in humans.