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What effect will the loss of Sharon have?


Pangloss
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Unfortunately, I don't feel that the loss of such a willing mass murderer will have much of an effect. It's a disappointment that we called ourselves his ally, and not just for the actions of his youth but also his policy in office. He may have just gained some sense recently because he knew he didn't have much time left, but who cares. It doesn't matter and nothing will. Israel has no hope of ever being civilized.

 

The reason for this instability lies in the motivations of the people to even live in Israel. Take religion out of it, and who would want to live in Israel? You have to be a fundamentalist, and we all know how fundamentalists are.

 

The only intelligent thing to do about Israel is to give up on it. Set up a fund to make sure that those who are in poverty can leave and start a new life elsewhere and let those who remain blow each other up in the name of God. Who are we to stop consenting adults from participating in madness? Just let the generations of Palestenians who have been victimized by Israeli power for their entire life a chance to leave if they want to first then let it go. Hell, make it a reality show and we'll all laugh.

 

Thank God the Zionist movement didn't choose Argentina.

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Israel has no hope of ever being civilized.

 

You've obviously never been to Israel if you are saying that.

 

The reason for this instability lies in the motivations of the people to even live in Israel. Take religion out of it, and who would want to live in Israel? You have to be a fundamentalist, and we all know how fundamentalists are.

 

In Israel, the religious Jewish population is actually quite small. You obviously have no idea what's going on over there or what the country is actually like. What mis-information are you basing these opinions on?

 

The only intelligent thing to do about Israel is to give up on it.

 

And give up on the thousands of scientific acheivements that Israel has gained over it's short 60 years?

 

Set up a fund to make sure that those who are in poverty can leave and start a new life elsewhere and let those who remain blow each other up in the name of God.

 

Not so easy as it sounds, considering 1 out of every 3 Israeli children are living below the poverty line. And considering the only people that get away with killing Palestinians is the Army, and they have a specific agenda.

 

Who are we to stop consenting adults from participating in madness? Just let the generations of Palestenians who have been victimized by Israeli power for their entire life a chance to leave if they want to first then let it go. Hell, make it a reality show and we'll all laugh.

 

And what about the thousands of innocent Israeli's killed by the suicide bombers? Were the Palestinian terrorist justified by taking innocent lives?

 

The Israeli's and the Palestinian's want the same thing... a homeland. Why would you give the Muslims this and deny it to the Jews? And don't play the "they were their first game." First of all, ever since the diaspora of the Jews from Palestine, the land has shuffled hands as a colony from one hand to another, finally becoming the property of Britain and being made into ISrael in 1948 by the UN. At the same time, the UN proposed to create another state called PAlestine, but they Muslim leaders rejected it, because they wanted all or nothing. Ever since, the Palestinians have felt unwelcome out of their own design. Israel never forcefully removed Palestinians nor gave them any less rights. Palestinians can vote, hold office or do anything else they want (except fight in the army). Does that sound like they were treated badly, initially?

 

You paint ISrael to be some savage barbaric nation, hell bent on destroying Palestinians, but did you know that at least 50% of the population are liberals, and would agree with everything your saying (accept for the fact that their barbaric). Your information seems to be limited and you are making attacks against a nation of people you know nothing about.

 

I thought he was actually starting to make some real progress, in which case this couldn't happen at a worse time. What could follow but less stability?

 

It really depends if they can find a leader as strong as Sharon. Sharon was a lot of things, but he definately was a strong figure head for the state. I'm not so sure that anybody would be able to amass votes like him, which would, in essence, divide the country.

 

There's no way that the Kadima party will be able to retain the support it had under Sharon, so I think that people will start to move back to Likud or the Labor party. That will be important because Kadima won't get as many seats in the Kenneset as it would have liked.

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You've obviously never been to Israel if you are saying that.

 

It's just my assumption that when you're sitting in a pizzaria and have a reasonable expectation of being blown up by either a suicide bomber or a helicopter gunship you no longer are in civilization.

 

In Israel, the religious Jewish population is actually quite small. You obviously have no idea what's going on over there or what the country is actually like. What mis-information are you basing these opinions on?

 

Okay, let's iron something out here. Religious Jewish is a little redundant. I'm not a non-religious Christian just because I'm a white midwesterner who despises religion. I have no religion, or ex-Christian but nothing gets that biographical. If you are jewish you are jewish, if you are not jewish you are not jewish. If you live in Israel because you believe it to be the land God has promised you, you are Jewish. The population is made up of religious fundamentalists killing each other (due to belief that they're on God's land, which can not be denied), and bystanders. Get the bystanders out and let those left murder each other.

 

Not so easy as it sounds' date=' considering 1 out of every 3 Israeli children are living below the poverty line. And considering the only people that get away with killing Palestinians is the Army, and they have a specific agenda....

And what about the thousands of innocent Israeli's killed by the suicide bombers? Were the Palestinian terrorist justified by taking innocent lives?[/quote']

 

While it is true that the palestinian cause has lost world sympathy, and my own, by resorting to such tactics I do understand their logic (although a non-productive one). They've been pushed to these methods by being treated as subhuman. An example is the assassination of the quadrapledgic palestinian (I can't remember his name) a few years back who Israel wanted rubbed out for supporting Hamas. Now, that makes sense for Israel not wanting this man around, but how did they do it? The palestinian was leaving a mosque and was met by a helicopter gunship that shot missles into a crowd and killed at least 8 other innocent people and injured many others. If my family was in that crowd, I can easily see myself resorting to such methods.

 

That sort of thing is not an isolated incident and it happens again and again and again. Both sides are barbarians, the difference is palestinians can't afford missles.

 

Palestinians can vote, hold office or do anything else they want (except fight in the army). Does that sound like they were treated badly, initially?

 

Yep. Israel is obviously interested in being a monolithic and racist nation.

 

Your information seems to be limited and you are making attacks against a nation of people you know nothing about.

 

Actually, I know enough Israeli-Americans to understand that their mentallity is the same as the idiots I grew up with, only they feel they actually have a holy land to fight for. But I do concede I know another Israeli-American that appeared in Playgirl in the mid-1980s and could care less about the whole mess.

 

I used to cover Israel when I was still working, but I have gotten rusty since I've retired from the media. This is because I stopped caring. I used to care immensly until I realized that the entire thing is based in religion, so screw them. Just get the bystanders out.

 

Israeli-Palestinian history is not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to discuss the effect that the loss of Ariel Sharon will have. My answer was just to explain that the loss will have no effect because although Sharon is a mass murderer the population of the people in that area are there for religious (or (lack-of) economic) reasons that will never allow the violence to cease.

 

I just wanted to weigh in because I'm thrilled that Sharon is on his deathbead, just as thrilled as a was when that two-faced psychopath Arafat was on his deathbed. I was simply celebrating the death of a world class asshole with my post and I don't want to waste any more time than I already have on Israel, so believe about me on this what you will ecoli (I used to be qualified to speak at length about this, but I stopped caring), I'm no longer participating. I'm just happy and I can't help it.

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It's just my assumption that when you're sitting in a pizzaria and have a reasonable expectation of being blown up by either a suicide bomber or a helicopter gunship you no longer are in civilization.
Well so maybe to you Israel isn't a civilisation... however I can quite assure you (from doing it myself) that nobody in Israel sits in a pizzaria thinking of the worst. Americans don't go to work thinking "I wonder if a plane will fly into my office today" and the British don't get on the tube (with millions of others every day) thinking "I wonder if some retard will blow up the tube today".... Similarly Israelis do NOT think about getting blown up.

 

And as you obviously don't follow Israeli news I'll point out that there have been like 2 suicide bombers in the past 4 months, that's a big improvement. And Israeli helicopters wont target you unless you are a terrorist leader.

 

Okay, let's iron something out here. Religious Jewish is a little redundant. I'm not a non-religious Christian just because I'm a white midwesterner who despises religion. I have no religion, or ex-Christian but nothing gets that biographical. If you are jewish you are jewish, if you are not jewish you are not jewish. If you live in Israel because you believe it to be the land God has promised you, you are Jewish. The population is made up of religious fundamentalists killing each other (due to belief that they're on God's land, which can not be denied), and bystanders. Get the bystanders out and let those left murder each other.
That is where you are soo totaly wrong. There was a quote in a film (I think) or somewhere tha I heard it recently; "Only evil people think in such extremes". You can't say "if you are jewish you are jewish" coz its crap. There are many people in todays world who are Jewish and if you ask them their religion that's what they will tell you. But they practice none of their religion, they don't believe in God etc. etc. There is every type of Jew combining every different opinion. Judaisim is not comprised of 2 extremes like you seem to think.

 

Also there are very very few Jewish fundamentalists who kill others. The fundamentalists you see killing others are all Palestinian and as I said before, the rate of suicide bombings is almost 0.

 

I must agree however that any Israeli or Arab (incl. Palestinians) who would actively go out and kill the other should die. But currently that would be very few people.

 

While it is true that the palestinian cause has lost world sympathy, and my own, by resorting to such tactics I do understand their logic (although a non-productive one).
You understand the non-productive use of suicide bombers? Please tell me, other than the sad deaths of the victims and the deserved death of the bomber there seems to be no aim, unless you want the Israeli army targeting militant leaders.

 

 

They've been pushed to these methods by being treated as subhuman. An example is the assassination of the quadrapledgic palestinian (I can't remember his name) a few years back who Israel wanted rubbed out for supporting Hamas. Now, that makes sense for Israel not wanting this man around, but how did they do it? The palestinian was leaving a mosque and was met by a helicopter gunship that shot missles into a crowd and killed at least 8 other innocent people and injured many others. If my family was in that crowd, I can easily see myself resorting to such methods.
And if your family supported and visited/followed a Hamas leader then whilst the Israeli army would not target them they would not mind their deaths if it was a side effect of killing a Hamas leader. Those 8 people who were killed along side the Hamas guy would have been people who truely supported the guy and so too supported Hamas. Not such a trajic loss IMO.

 

That sort of thing is not an isolated incident and it happens again and again and again. Both sides are barbarians, the difference is palestinians can't afford missles.
The killing of a militant leader is actually a rare event. There have not been many of those killings. Also you say both sides are barbarians, I see where you are coming from, but note this difference: The palestinians will get a bomb, stick it on their back and go and blow up Israeli civilians doing their shopping or on a bus. Whereas the Israeli army will target a militant leader and eliminate that person, there is sometimes a side effect (ie. a small few others being killed) but the aim was not to kill them, the aim was the known militant. Compare this to the Palestinian 'kill a civilian' idea I would say they are in totaly different leagues.

 

And who said palestinians can't afford missiles? They have used anti-tank missiles, anti-vehicle missiles, anti-personnel missiles, anti-aircraft missiles, as well as bazookas, mortar, bombs, mines, rockets, RPGs, rifles, machine guns and everything else... my a$$ they can't afford a missile... it's just not many people will sell a missile to a palestinian who just wants to shoot it at Israeli civilians.

 

Yep. Israel is obviously interested in being a monolithic and racist nation.
Just because Israeli don't like the Palestinians because they kill civilians doesn't make it racist.

 

This is because I stopped caring. I used to care immensly until I realized that the entire thing is based in religion, so screw them. Just get the bystanders out.
So just because religion comes into it you don't care about it nor the people involved. Get the bystanders out? You realise it is the bystanders who are targeted by Palestinians, and the bystanders are only occasionally the side effect of an Israeli targetted strike.

 

the loss will have no effect because although Sharon is a mass murderer the population of the people in that area are there for religious (or (lack-of) economic) reasons that will never allow the violence to cease.
Since when has Sharon ever committed mass murder? You realise that the Israelis of 50 years ago went there because they needed a home where they weren't killed, not necessarily because of religious reasons. And the Israelis of today were born there, they don't live there for religious reasons. And even if they lived there for religious reasons (which the majority do not) why does that mean there can be no peace?

 

I just wanted to weigh in because I'm thrilled that Sharon is on his deathbead, just as thrilled as a was when that two-faced psychopath Arafat was on his deathbed. I was simply celebrating the death of a world class asshole with my post and I don't want to waste any more time than I already have on Israel, so believe about me on this what you will ecoli (I used to be qualified to speak at length about this, but I stopped caring), I'm no longer participating. I'm just happy and I can't help it.
So after all of this all you wanted to do was celebrate... well that wasn't the point of this thread as you said yourself, so then logically your post was (as far as this thread is concerned) irrelevant.

 

I have no problem with your opinion about him dying and you are right to say you can't help it, no one can help their feelings.

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Now, as to the original question:

 

Just curious you all think the impact the loss of Ariel Sharon will be on the peace process.
I am uncertain as far as the whole situation is concerned. Last week Israeli politics was changing because Likud was changing leader and a new party with Sharon was forming. Other parties had a chance of winning the elections, nothing was certain.

 

Now Israeli politics is changing more because the current prime minister is going, Sharon's proposed new party will have major problems, Israel will have a new leader, who will it be? What will happen?

 

Also remember Likud's policies when it was voted on... well that was very different to it's policies over the last few months. So even if a certain party if elected, how do we know how they will act in a few months?

 

I think the loss will have a big change on the peace process, but even if he wasn't going there would still be a big change over the next few months. Now the change will be different to how it would have been... either way I don't know and wouldn't like to guess what that change would be, wait and see I guess.

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5614, the reason why the Israelis don't have to adopt the tactics of the Palestinian terrorists is because they don't have to. They can use more sophisticated warfare strategies to achieve their ends.

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Originally Posted by ecoli

In Israel, the religious Jewish population is actually quite small. You obviously have no idea what's going on over there or what the country is actually like.

What proportion of the US supporters of Israel do you think have first-hand knowledge of the "state" of Israel?

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5614, the reason why the Israelis don't have to adopt the tactics of the Palestinian terrorists is because they don't have to. They can use more sophisticated warfare strategies to achieve their ends.
True, but tactics aside they have different aims. Palestinian terrorists just want to kill Israeli civilians because they are Israeli civilians. Israelis want to kill terrorist leaders because they are leading a group which kills Israeli civilians.

 

What proportion of the US supporters of Israel do you think have first-hand knowledge of the "state" of Israel?
Firstly that is irrelevant to the truth. Secondly whatever the value is it will be more than the proportion of the USA (incl. non supporters and everyone else etc.) because those who support Israel are most likely to find out and visit the place. Consequently it is (on average and as far as proportions are concerned) only supporters who know the full truth. This is obviously not a good thing.

 

They were givin the land by the UN granted.But are they still taking territory,then settle there,then destroy what they built and pull back,then take it agian and settle,and so on so on they are like russians.They just want to keep expanding.
Given the land by the UN, yes, because the UN owned the land can could and did do what it wanted with the land.

 

Israelis aren't still taking territory... in fact they are giving it back, remember the Gaza pull out?

 

If you think about it, every nation has a take/settle/pull out strategy sometimes. The Allies are using it in Iraq at the moment. We have taken the land, now the army has settled there, and some day in the future we will all pull out.

 

The only place Israel has settled/pulled out is Gaza. So let's look at the "take" part. In 1949 after the Arab-Israeli war Gaza was in the hands of the Egyptians (only because the Israelis gave it to them in the 1949 Armistice Agreements). Then in 1967 Six Day War Israel captured Gaza. Lets just note that in the war started by the Arabs that Israel defeated the Arabs and in doing so gained the land which the Arab armies were withdrawing from.

 

In case you think it is unfair to gain a tiny bit of land in warfare the Israelis made a peace treaty with the Egyptians in which Israel gave back the whole of the Sinai desert, a massive piece of land when compared to the size of Israel. Both Israel and the Egyptians were perfectly happy with this arrangement which resulted in Israel gaining the Gaza strip.

 

So in the Gaza case "take" really means that you gain a tiny bit of land from an enemy who started a war with you and when the peace treaty was made everyone was happy regarding that little piece of land.

 

As far as comparing Israelis to Russians... you can hardly say they want to keep expanding. The only time Israel has ever gained land is through a war started by it's enemies. And after each war Israel gave back the majority of land it gained for peace. If the Arabs never started a war with Israel there would still be the original borders, and maybe you would like to look up and see what they were, it might interest you.

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My mistake.I didnt know about the giving of the Sinai desert.

But u do have to admit the U.S.A being allies with the Isrealis isnt makeing us any friends in the Middle East. Isreal is killing muslims with American equipment.

I would also like to know your opinion on the Lukude party.

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Originally Posted by 5614

Palestinian terrorists just want to kill Israeli civilians because they are Israeli civilians.

You're sure about this? Is that because they're terrorists or Palestinians or both. Or maybe people with a justifiable,at least to them, POV and rock-bottom available unsavoury tactics? Does the US-Israeli alliance have no case to answer? Do powerful alliances take any notice of countries with no obvious political or economic assets?

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But u do have to admit the U.S.A being allies with the Isrealis isnt makeing us any friends in the Middle East. Isreal is killing muslims with American equipment.
You don't have any friends in the middle east anyway, except Israel.

 

The only country who would ever make friends with a Western country is Israel... you can't say "if Israel wasn't my ally then Iran would be" because it's just not true.

 

A month or two back Muslims in Pakistan broke into a Church, burning the doors as they went in. They smashed the marble altar of the Holy Spirit Church and shattered stained glass windows. They torched a Christian residence and the neighbouring St. Anthony's Girls School. For days the Wahhabi clerics kept on calling their Muslim followers to come out from their houses and defend their faith by unleashing a reign of terror against Christians. Why? Because there was a rumor that a Christian had desecrated their holy book, the Quran.

 

I would also like to know your opinion on the Lukude party.
In what way? Now that Sharon has gone? I don't know what will happen to it. It's policies since it was originally elected have changed, now Sharon has gone will it's policies remain modified or go back to the old ones? Who will the new leader be and what is the opposition? There's a lot of uncertainty and I wouldn't like to guess.

 

You're sure about this? Is that because they're terrorists or Palestinians or both. Or maybe people with a justifiable,at least to them, POV and rock-bottom available unsavoury tactics?
It's because they are extremist Palestinian terrorists. There are many Palestinians who are friendly and peaceful. I was referring specifically to extremist Palestinian terrorists. To these extremists they kill Israelis solely because they are Israeli, of that I am certain. Maybe they have other excuses, but that is the (if not one of the main) reasons for their actions.

 

Does the US-Israeli alliance have no case to answer? Do powerful alliances take any notice of countries with no obvious political or economic assets
I'm going out literally now, will answer another time (either later or tomorrow).
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Not to sound like a racist but there has got to be a reason after so many thousands of years of jewish persicution

 

I don't want to jump to conclusions. You are saying that there is a reason for what? For the jewish persecution, including the holocaust?

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They were givin the land by the UN granted.But are they still taking territory,then settle there,then destroy what they built and pull back,then take it agian and settle,and so on so on they are like russians.They just want to keep expanding.

 

You are referring to territory "taken" by Israel after they were attacked in the 1960s? Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't purport to be an expert on the history of Israel. However, with respect to land "taken" after they were attacked, I have little sympathy for the attackers. If you attack a country and lose be prepared to part with something.

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Damn Tulsa Oklahoma,very close to me.

Anyway i get your point.About the holocaust....I my self cannot fully give an idea about how a leader can brainwash a entier Country to hate the jews.But i have been told by my mother that her father (ww2 vet) said that the jews in Germany were all wealthy.They the monopoly on the buisness while others were falling to poverty.Basiclly they were taking over.....kinda like they do now.

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Damn Tulsa Oklahoma' date='very close to me.

Anyway i get your point.About the holocaust....I my self cannot fully give an idea about how a leader can brainwash a entier Country to hate the jews.But i have been told by my mother that her father (ww2 vet) said that the jews in Germany were all wealthy.They the monopoly on the buisness while others were falling to poverty.Basiclly they were taking over.....kinda like they do now.[/quote']

 

That was just a stereotype that Hitler used so he could use Jews as a scapegoat to obtain power. It's true that many of the Jews in Germany were wealthy, but it would be a folly to say that all of them were, or even a majority.

 

You are referring to territory "taken" by Israel after they were attacked in the 1960s? Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't purport to be an expert on the history of Israel. However, with respect to land "taken" after they were attacked, I have little sympathy for the attackers. If you attack a country and lose be prepared to part with something.

 

Basically, Egypt attacked... they lost. Israel captured the Sinai Desert and Gaza. They gave back Sinai in return for Oil, but kept Gaza. Which they recently left.

 

You don't have any friends in the middle east anyway' date=' except Israel.

 

The only country who would ever make friends with a Western country is Israel... you can't say "if Israel wasn't my ally then Iran would be" because it's just not true.[/quote']

 

You're absolutely right. The only relationship we have with any other country in the middle east is because of oil. I would hardly consider that a friendship (Watch Syrianna).

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It is hard to see how a society founded on terrorism can ever expect terrorism against them to stop. The existence of Israel itself is a demonstration that terrorism works, so is an encouragement to the arab extremists.

 

I never liked Sharon, but the direction he has taken recently has been an improvement. I am worried that with his death the shit will hit the fan....

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Damn Tulsa Oklahoma' date='very close to me.

Anyway i get your point.About the holocaust....I my self cannot fully give an idea about how a leader can brainwash a entier Country to hate the jews.But i have been told by my mother that her father (ww2 vet) said that the jews in Germany were all wealthy.They the monopoly on the buisness while others were falling to poverty.Basiclly they were taking over.....kinda like they do now.[/quote']

 

One man didn't do it. He carried the hate to the extreme, but it was already there. Some blamed the jews for not supporting Germany in WWI and social ills. Hatred like this will always exist, and can easily result in atrocities. This is why it must be handled when it arises.

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Does the US-Israeli alliance have no case to answer? Do powerful alliances take any notice of countries with no obvious political or economic assets
I'm going out literally now' date=' will answer another time (either later or tomorrow).[/quote']

It's a hard question really. I thought of this earlier today though. Why do you make friends or allies? Because there's something in it for you. Even when making social friends there's always something in it for you. It's often just the fact that they'll be a friend, someone to talk to and to have fun with. Whatever the reason there always is one.

 

Similarly with making a political ally, there will be something in it for both sides. I'm taking Bush's viewpoint throughout this post which is (in a situation such as the Israel/Arab one where you either support one country or neither) America sees the Palestinian extremists as militants or terrorists.

 

Whilst Israel isn't physically a Western country if you went around it, looked at the places, talked to the people, you would have thought it was a Western country. In fact they mostly speak English in an American accent. Anyhow, America sees Israel as a country which is like America in its lifestyle and also in that it is being attacked by militant or terrorist groups.

 

Al-Qaeda have a reason for killing Americans. So Islamic Jihad and the likes have reasons for killing Israelis. From Bush's viewpoint the Palestinian militant groups are in the wrong and (without me wanting to use a strong word) he probably thinks they are evil.

 

Where does all of this lead? Bush sees Israel as a similar country and he wants to help it. There's a reason. Israel has a great academic asset, a great economic asset, a great military asset and in the face of a war Israel would fight as an ally, it wouldn't be like some of those stupid European countries who are "allies" with USA and UK etc. but wouldn't go to war in Iraq. (Israel wasn't asked to go to war in Iraq for complex political issues, it wasn't needed and wasn't asked, it's different to countries within the EU.) So there's a few reasons why America would want to be allies with Israel.

 

Besides, like said in a previous post, Israel is the only Middle Eastern country that really wants a relationship with a Western country. I know that all of the countries which make oil have a relationship with America, but that's because America pays a lot of money for a lot of oil. That relationship is built purely on a "we pay, you give" foundation, it's hardly a solid foundation and I wouldn't really classify that relationship as an alliance.

 

To answer the question "Do powerful alliances take any notice of countries with no obvious political or economic assets" I would say "possibly" or "it depends".

 

It is hard to see how a society founded on terrorism can ever expect terrorism against them to stop.
What do you mean? Israel was founded on terrorism? How so?
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Is it just me, or did other people see a remarkable improvement in Sharon's disposition after the death of Arafat?

 

Where does all of this lead? Bush sees Israel as a similar country and he wants to help it. There's a reason. Israel has a great academic asset, a great economic asset, a great military asset and in the face of a war Israel would fight as an ally, it wouldn't be like some of those stupid European countries who are "allies" with USA and UK etc. but wouldn't go to war in Iraq. (Israel wasn't asked to go to war in Iraq for complex political issues, it wasn't needed and wasn't asked, it's different to countries within the EU.) So there's a few reasons why America would want to be allies with Israel.

 

Another probable reason why Bush in particular is a strong ally of Israel is because he's backed by evangelical Christians who believe that the Jews must own Jerusalem when the second-coming of the Messiah occurs. Not that the other reasons aren't valid, I just find this reason the most amusing.

 

Stringtheory:

You should read up on the persecution of the jews in Europe over the past ~2000 years. Anti-semitism is very old.

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