Martin Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 http://arxiv.org/physics/0510102 Message in the Sky Authors: S. Hsu, A. Zee 3 pages Subj-class: Popular Physics "We argue that the cosmic microwave background (CMB) provides a stupendous opportunity for the Creator of our universe (assuming one exists) to have sent a message to its occupants , using known physics. The medium for the message is unique. We elaborate on this observation, noting that it requires only careful adjustment of the fundamental Lagrangian, but no direct intervention in the subsequent evolution of the universe." click on PDF to download the full (3-page) text A. Zee is a prominent physicist and an original mind. Anything he writes is apt to be interesting. Haven't had time to read this myself but wanted to share the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 It would certainly be interesting to note the religious community's reaction if a message were found in the CMB that read, "Hey guys, the universe is governed by gauge theories, and the relevant algebras are such and such." Puts a whole new spin on "Go forth and multiply." I like that Hsu and Zee speak of a creator that works within the laws of physics. This suggests that God need not be omnipotent, merely superior. I also agree that when we have more accurate data on the CMB that studies should be undertaken to look for patterns. It does seem to be the perfect place for a universal message to be placed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 13, 2005 Author Share Posted October 13, 2005 It would certainly be interesting to note the religious community's reaction if a message were found in the CMB that read' date=' "Hey guys, the universe is governed by gauge theories, and the relevant algebras are such and such." Puts a whole new spin on "Go forth and multiply." I like that Hsu and Zee speak of a creator that works within the laws of physics. This suggests that God need not be omnipotent, merely superior. I also agree that when we have more accurate data on the CMB that studies should be undertaken to look for patterns. It does seem to be the perfect place for a universal message to be placed.[/quote'] You probably remember what Andrei Linde (co-inventor of the inflation scenario in cosmology) said, around 1990 sometime: "the Universe was probably created by two graduate students." Linde came from an elite Moscow Institute, Alan Guth who was the American co-inventor of inflation, had a different take. He said: "the Universe was probably created by some guy in his garage." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettina Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 When I was little, I thought the face on the moon was god. Always looking, sometimes even in the daytime. Sometimes on the other side of the earth, checking others out. Unfortunately, "God does not play dice" ......or leave messages. Bettina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 13, 2005 Author Share Posted October 13, 2005 Smolin's conjecture is that universes happen automatically when a black hole forms. Most of Friday at this week's quantum gravity conference will be devoted to working out the details of this idea most important are the talks by Ashtekar, Winkler, and Husain see the friday schedule, click on the speaker's name to get the abstract summary of the talk http://loops05.aei.mpg.de/index_files/Programme.html this is a breaking story in QG you dont have to imagine two graduate students or a guy in his garage, it just happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 13, 2005 Author Share Posted October 13, 2005 When I was little' date=' I thought the face on the moon was god. Always looking, sometimes even in the daytime. Sometimes on the other side of the earth, checking others out. Unfortunately, "God does not play dice" ......or leave messages. Bettina[/quote'] the map of the microwave background----those oval blue and red maps you have seen----may contain a message (a message from nature----I shoud use a different word) about a contraction phase prior to the changeover from contraction to expansion the map of the microwave background may contain the signature of one of the Quantum Gravity models which will allow people to chose one model over the others. [EDIT: had to temper the wording] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 13, 2005 Author Share Posted October 13, 2005 Steve Hsu, the other co-author, is my favorite blogger. If you don't have a favorite blog yet, try Steve's "infoproc" or "information processing" http://infoproc.blogspot.com/ he is a theoretical physicist but he has a really good eye for poetry and film, and trends in the world economy. Anyway this paper of Steve's (with Zee) that just came out called MESSAGE IN THE SKY he is beginning to get a little feedback on it at his blog, so you can read other people reactions and, if you want, post a response. http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2005/10/message-in-sky.html If you know the film Bladerunner you might check out the discussion of that too. http://infoproc.blogspot.com/#112758149812599269 when you saw Bladerunner did you ever sympathize with the ringleader android Baty played by Rutger Hauer? the creator, that Thomas B Watson IBM magnate, made their lives so short! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpwmatthews Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 "the Universe was probably created by some guy in his garage." Things in the Universe are too symetrical as to be random. Everything seems to be centered around Circles? Earth, Cells, symatery of flowers and the like. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 14, 2005 Author Share Posted October 14, 2005 Things in the Universe are too symetrical as to be random. Everything seems to be centered around Circles? Earth, Cells, symatery of flowers and the like. Any thoughts? Yes it stirs my deeply spiritual Atheist feelings, because I see how powerful the Laws of Physics are. that they shape all things in beauty, without the need for conscious intervention, and it makes me think of William Blake, that amazing symmetry which arises from the un-interfered-with operation of Natural Law and it strengthens my Atheist reverence for Nature and I say "Holy, holy, holy, Laws of the Universe, Heaven and Earth are Filled With their Glory!" Any other questions, Matthews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 the cosmologist Andrei Linde (co-inventor of the inflation scenario, with Alan Guth) had a response to Steve Hsu and Anthony Zee paper Message in the Sky he wrote to Steve Hsu, who accordingly blogged it: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2005/10/message-from-linde.html turns out Linde had already had some ideas along similar lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luc Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Blimey! This is the same Anton Zee that wrote my appreciated book "Quantum Field theory in a Nutshell". I think that is time to eat that book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Blimey! This is the same Anton Zee that wrote my appreciated book "Quantum Field theory in a Nutshell". I think that is time to eat that book Yes the same A. Zee! Now I am happy because you, luc, have noticed this charming short provocative paper, and also Phi and Bettina. thank you all for .... whatever. sharing the thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luc Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I'm thinking about the possible messages that "God" could have written in the CMB One obvious would be: "The answer is 42" Other possibles: -Sorry for the inconvenience -Hey, how are you doing? -I want to have a conversation with you (that would let us bewildered because we couldn't know how to answer!) -Be good -I'm watching you etc. actually, if a creator exists, can't be so mischievous to scare the hell out of us with a cosmic message. Leaving aside the fact that I don't believe in any creator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 .. Leaving aside the fact that I don't believe in any creator me neither, no evidence of it. reasonably good explanation offered (merely as a conjecture) by Smolin is that spacetimematter including basic numbers (1/137,...1838,...) that go into the laws EVOLVED by an interative process that Smolin describes that is still just a conjecture but beyond that it's Occam: why introduce another entity needlessly? Though I still like that in Hitchhiker's Guide the guy who manufactures lifesize custommade planets for rich customers puts his signature into like the coast of Norway. Slartibartfest, if I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bascule Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 me neither' date=' no evidence of it. reasonably good explanation offered (merely as a conjecture) by Smolin is that spacetimematter including basic numbers (1/137,...1838,...) that go into the laws EVOLVED[/quote'] As an organicist I say the whole system evolves. There's still faith involved here... faith that humanity will be able to solve every problem it encounters. But what happens then... what are you left with but an all-powerful god-like entity? Ed: This thread is awesome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 26, 2005 Author Share Posted October 26, 2005 When I was little' date=' I thought the face on the moon was god. Always looking, sometimes even in the daytime. Sometimes on the other side of the earth, checking others out. Unfortunately, "God does not play dice" ......or leave messages. Bettina[/quote'] this is one of those photographs that makes one love astronomy http://www.eso.org/outreach/press-rel/pr-2005/phot-33-05.html I have to admit that it is difficult not to believe in God when one sees pictures of the universe which have such awesome beauty I don't mean a busybody God interfering in the less than savory affairs of us monkeys but at least someone with taste in the construction of galaxies this is a picture of stars spiraling into a black hole at the center of a galaxy we call NGC 1097. so beautiful. it is in a southern constellation and they have this large telescope in Chile called ESO or European Southern. and it sees in the infra-red, so it can see stuff like this that would be hidden by clouds of dust at optical wavelengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettina Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 this is one of those photographs that makes one love astronomy http://www.eso.org/outreach/press-rel/pr-2005/phot-33-05.html I have to admit that it is difficult not to believe in God when one sees pictures of the universe which have such awesome beauty I don't mean a busybody God interfering in the less than savory affairs of us monkeys but at least someone with taste in the construction of galaxies this is a picture of stars spiraling into a black hole at the center of a galaxy we call NGC 1097. so beautiful. it is in a southern constellation and they have this large telescope in Chile called ESO or European Southern. and it sees in the infra-red' date=' so it can see stuff like this that would be hidden by clouds of dust at optical wavelengths.[/quote'] Martin, Thank you for that European Link. It has lots of other links attached to it so I'm going to be spending some time there. The Universe is a beautiful sight when viewed thru a telescope and the colors are awesome. I have some of the better posters decorating my walls too. Unfortuately, when I look up, I see nothing that would lead me to believe a creator did this. I see no signature, just mental images of beautiful galaxies getting sucked into an abyss and I can almost hear the chaos as the last bit of matter disappears. If a creator did this....then why is he tearing it up? Sorry for the doom.....I've been down lately. Bettina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 27, 2005 Author Share Posted October 27, 2005 Sorry for the doom.....I've been down lately. Bettina Gosh, too bad. cheer up. you are the only person I know with a 2 and 1/2 octave range (unless they are pro) BTW in my chorus we are singing all 16th Century renaissance polyphony this Fall. A mass by a Spanish composer named Tomas Victoria. A motet by the same composer. Something by Orlando di Lasso. Something from around 1600 by a Florentine Jewish composer named Solomon Rossi. I had never sung anything by either Victoria or Rossi before. They are beautiful works. Sacred music of the 16th, one could get to like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokele Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 But God already has left a sign written in those cosmos, letting us know just how much he cares about us: Upper left corner to see the very hand of God expressing His True Thoughts Mokele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 27, 2005 Author Share Posted October 27, 2005 Upper left corner to see the very hand of God expressing His True Thoughts Mokele Uh-oh and it's aimed right in our direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X facter Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 One obvious would be: "The answer is 42" -Sorry for the inconvenience Gotta love HHGTTG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locrian Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Thanks for the link to Hsu's blog, Martin! I have added it to my ever growing list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted November 16, 2005 Author Share Posted November 16, 2005 http://arxiv.org/physics/0510102 Message in the Sky Authors: S. Hsu' date=' A. Zee 3 pages Subj-class: Popular Physics "We argue that the cosmic microwave background (CMB) provides a [b']stupendous opportunity for the Creator of our universe[/b] (assuming one exists) to have sent a message to its occupants , using known physics. The medium for the message is unique. We elaborate on this observation, noting that it requires only careful adjustment of the fundamental Lagrangian, but no direct intervention in the subsequent evolution of the universe." click on PDF to download the full (3-page) text ... Haven't had time to read this myself but wanted to share the link. this paper has been answered by another couple of authors http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0511135 they say some of the fine ripples of the CMB are apt to look different to widely separated observers, so it isnt such a good billboard----it doesnt read the same way to everybody. I should have guessed there was some catch Good try, Zee and Hsu Locrian, glad you like Steve Hsu's blog---- http://infoproc.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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