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Some ancient philosopher / Scientists


Saber

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Some  of  you  may   know  Rumi......the  Iranian   poet........from  *   im  Iranian  my self  he   lived in the  13th  century......

 

reading  some of his  poems   i   saw  he  states  that  the   planets  are 9 .......i  have  read  2  of  his  poems  that   in them   he  clearly  indicates   them  being  9 ....

 

But the planets  have been  discovered only  up  to  Saturn  ( the  6th ) .....@   that  time............those  two  poems   i  read   made  me  wonder  how  he  new  about  them  being 9

We  had another   philosopher called Azziz Al din nassaifi  who  was  not a  poet  but  he  wrote books..............and  he  also  lived  in the 13th  century .......he  has  two  major books and in  one  of them  he   indicates  &  talks  about  evolution..........not  specifically  and  with details.......but  rather as   a  general  rule.....and    wrote  generally.......

he  wrote  the  first  living  things  were  Moss......then  they  turned into   plants......and  afterwards  into   animals..... and  then  the  animals  evolved  into  humans...............he  states  that  the  first  human  beings   came  from   (  Zanzibar )  the  current  Tanzania.....and  now science  has  proved that  the  Homo  species  has  origins  in  east  African  plains.....(   Savanna's ).....

I  wonder  how   these  people  knew  these  things...............and   how    they  came  up with  these  ...................they  didnt  say   that   this  is  my  idea.......or   ...like  :  i  think  so......or  kike   thats  my  opinion.......

They   simply   stated  that   it  is   like  this  and   these are  the  facts....

another   one  was  the  Attar  of   Neishapur 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_of_Nishapur

he  also  lived in the 12 &  13 th  centuries.....and  he  was a poet......once  i  read a  poem  from  him   he  stated  that  the  objects  that  you  see with  your  eyes.....are  only  there  because  you  see them.....and  if  you  dont  look  @   them   their  existence   becomes...only  as a  potential.......

Reading   that  poem   made me   to  think  about the (  observer  effect )  in  Quantum  physics

And  i  really  really  got  interested ...............and  thought  that .....  really  this  guy  knew  about that phenomenon ???  or.......is  it  something else.....!!!! 

There  maybe  some  other  philosophers  from   around the  world @ that   time....that   knew  and stated or wrote  about  these  things   also.............i  dont  know.......in fact   i  think   there  must  be  some  other  evidence  of other people  around  the  world  @  that   time  &  times  thats   shows humans   knew  these  tings   back   then   also.........not  systematically  & academically..........but  rather   generally  among the  philosophers......and  scholars......

 

 

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It would be helpful if 

1. You clarified what you wish to discuss

2. You provided actual quotes rather than paraphrases. You’re giving your interpretation of what they said. Others need to know what they actually said.

3. You got your keyboard fixed. Your “.” key keeps sticking. Makes it difficult to read.

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On 1/22/2023 at 6:38 AM, swansont said:

It would be helpful if 

1. You clarified what you wish to discuss

2. You provided actual quotes rather than paraphrases. You’re giving your interpretation of what they said. Others need to know what they actually said.

3. You got your keyboard fixed. Your “.” key keeps sticking. Makes it difficult to read.

1:   i  want to  know that  in  other  parts  of  the  world   in the  past  centuries  also  there  were  some people   indicating that the  scholars or  scientist knew some  stuff that  we  generally  think  that was  out of their  times  science boundaries

2 : those were  the exact  things  they  said   i  translated them  .....i can  provide  links  but  their all in my own  language....(  Farsi )

3:  my keyboard is  retarded ill try  to train it

4 :  Why  dont the notification of the  site  notify  me  when  somebody  replies  to  my  threads ?  I  manually  come  and  check  them ........

Edited by Saber
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2 hours ago, Saber said:

1:   i  want to  know that  in  other  parts  of  the  world   in the  past  centuries  also  there  were  some people   indicating that the  scholars or  scientist knew some  stuff that  we  generally  think  that was  out of their  times  science boundaries

Yes, but with caveats.

Are you familiar with the notion of 'cherry-picking'?

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On 1/22/2023 at 3:24 AM, Saber said:

Some  of  you  may   know  Rumi......the  Iranian   poet........from  *   im  Iranian  my self  he   lived in the  13th  century......

We  had another   philosopher called Azziz Al din nassaifi 

another   one  was  the  Attar  of   Neishapur 
 

From what I gather, all three of these people were writing around or a little after the fall of the Abbassid Caliphate in Baghdad to the forces of Hulagu Khan in 1258. 

Could it be possible that their writings were coloured by such tumultuous events occurring around them, while the world centre of scientific learning for the previous 3 or 4 centuries was being laid waste?

Rather than trying to find the underlying truth in the imaginations of poets, I'd be more inclined to look at what contemporary scientists were writing at the time. Have you looked at the writings of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi?

Edited by sethoflagos
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5 hours ago, Saber said:

2 : those were  the exact  things  they  said   i  translated them  .....i can  provide  links  but  their all in my own  language....(  Farsi )

I believe that all Rumi writings have been translated to English and perhaps the translations can be found on the Internet. Just give us a name.

However, links to the Farsi sources would probably do too, as Google translate works with Persian.

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1 hour ago, Genady said:

I believe that all Rumi writings have been translated to English and perhaps the translations can be found on the Internet. Just give us a name.

However, links to the Farsi sources would probably do too, as Google translate works with Persian.

https://ganjoor.net/moulavi/shams/ghazalsh/sh649

 

here in the  5 th  line   he  indicates  the 9  planets

He  says 

The 9  planets are all from  one origin and  entity

But  it  has  translated  it   so : Nine carousels sold that month

* it  has  translated the  second  line   right

 

Unfortunately  no.....the  translate  cant  translate poems.....as in  iranian  poems   there is  a lot of  amphibology..........a lot............and  google   for  sure  cant  understand them....

In the  works  &  books  of  Azizz Aldin  Nassafi  als o  is writen  in the  Farsi language of 700  years ago  which is somehow  different from  todays........

I  will try  one  of  his   in  Google translate  also.....to  see what  it translates

hup.jpg

yutdt.jpg

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The  One  for Attar  for  example

 

Says this  sea of  existing  things are  infinite............and  their  differences ( here  the  word  differences   mean  their  existence )  is  due  to  observers not because  of  the vision (  meaning  their  existence is  due  to an  observer and  its  not  like  that   they  exist  and  you  see them its   like  because  you look at them  becuase of your  vision  they  exist there for  you )

It  has  used two Arabic  words   Basr  = Vision    &  Mobser   =  the  viewer  

 

As  you see it  hasnt  translated the  Arabic  word of Mobser even  right  because   it  has   confused it  with  Mobsar....

*  In  Arabic  the  Vowels  are not  letter  but little   letters  written  above and  under letters....called  ( Irab)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ʾIʿrab

And   when  i  write them to  define  Mobser  from  Mobsar  or  even  Mobbasar ( there  is  an  Irab  that  doubles  the letter ) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadda

  the google  translate  seems   not to  pick up  on  those and reffer all  to Mobsar  meaning   sighted   or  the   thing   that is  viewed.....Insted  of  Mobser  meaning  the  viewer    or the  observer   .....

 

 

rfre.jpg

uioy.jpg

faerf.jpg

edf.jpg

 

3 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

From what I gather, all three of these people were writing around or a little after the fall of the Abbassid Caliphate in Baghdad to the forces of Hulagu Khan in 1258. 

Could it be possible that their writings were coloured by such tumultuous events occurring around them, while the world centre of scientific learning for the previous 3 or 4 centuries was being laid waste?

Rather than trying to find the underlying truth in the imaginations of poets, I'd be more inclined to look at what contemporary scientists were writing at the time. Have you looked at the writings of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi?

My  house is  in  a  street  named  after him.......man.................

Edited by Saber
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52 minutes ago, Saber said:

https://ganjoor.net/moulavi/shams/ghazalsh/sh649

 

here in the  5 th  line   he  indicates  the 9  planets

He  says 

The 9  planets are all from  one origin and  entity

But  it  has  translated  it   so : Nine carousels sold that month

* it  has  translated the  second  line   right

 

Unfortunately  no.....the  translate  cant  translate poems.....as in  iranian  poems   there is  a lot of  amphibology..........a lot............and  google   for  sure  cant  understand them....

In the  works  &  books  of  Azizz Aldin  Nassafi  als o  is writen  in the  Farsi language of 700  years ago  which is somehow  different from  todays........

I  will try  one  of  his   in  Google translate  also.....to  see what  it translates

hup.jpg

yutdt.jpg

Hadi Kharaghani's Homepage (uleth.ca):

"At the twilight, a moon appeared in the sky;
Then it landed on earth to look at me.
Like a hawk stealing a bird at the time of prey;
That moon stole me and rushed back into the sky.
I looked at myself, I did not see me anymore;
For in that moon, my body turned as fine as soul.
The nine spheres disappeared in that moon;
The ship of my existence drowned in that sea."

Rumi's Divan Shams Tabrizi, 649:1-3,5

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And    not  forget  to mention  that the  translation  of Attars  second   line   is  also   done  wrong by google  not  because  it  didnt  understand  the  sentence  but  rather  that  it  should  be a   question  mark  in the middle of  the  sentence  making  it  like  this :

It  came  from basar ?   noo.  .... no  way ......it  is  from  the   mobser.........but   as   the were  no  question  marks   700  years  ago   the  translation   took  it  completely  reversed......

 

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3 minutes ago, Genady said:

Hadi Kharaghani's Homepage (uleth.ca):

"At the twilight, a moon appeared in the sky;
Then it landed on earth to look at me.
Like a hawk stealing a bird at the time of prey;
That moon stole me and rushed back into the sky.
I looked at myself, I did not see me anymore;
For in that moon, my body turned as fine as soul.
The nine spheres disappeared in that moon;
The ship of my existence drowned in that sea."

Rumi's Divan Shams Tabrizi, 649:1-3,5

The  line that  says  : the nine  spheres  disappeared in that  moon  is  not  translated  correctly  in  that   one either.....

 

Its   the  nine Orbiting objects.......like  the google  that  translated  it into  carousels.......not  nine  spheres....also  in  order  to  comprehend  the  meaning  of   that  says   the  those things  have  cam   from  one  origin   and  not  as  it  has  translated  disappeared in  that  moon ...........you  have to be  persian   and  you  have to  know  persian  poetry  well  enough  ass well  to  understand   exactly  what  each  phrase  means  in each  place  as i  said   many  words can  have  some different  meanings......and  in  every  sentence  according  to  the  thing   that  the poet  is  speaking  about..........the  reader has  to  find out  what  that   word  means  here  him/her self........

But the tings  that  i   wanted to  mention  @  first was that  he  know   that  the planets  were 9 ..........that  can  be   read  even  in  the  translation  you  offered  also..........
Note that   the  other lines  of that  translation also  have  some miss understandings  too....

12 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

This is a reference to Ptolemy's celestial spheres that the Islamic world of the time was well acquainted with.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_spheres

 

9 minutes ago, Genady said:

Thanx.......

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Like any other religion I know, you translate and interpret ancient texts any way you like.

BTW, by today's definition of planet in astronomy, there are 8 planets in the Solar system, not 9. And if you count Pluto as a planet, then there are more than 9.

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23 minutes ago, Genady said:

Like any other religion I know, you translate and interpret ancient texts any way you like.

BTW, by today's definition of planet in astronomy, there are 8 planets in the Solar system, not 9. And if you count Pluto as a planet, then there are more than 9.

Please elaborate.

Also our word for planet come from the ancient Greek meaning 'wanderer'. These referred to heavenly objects that did not track nightly across the sky the way the remote stars do, but moved in an apparently erratic way.

There are many objects in the sky that do this and in the clear middle eastern skies more can readily be seen. So it depends upon what your poets meant by planets.

Edited by studiot
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14 minutes ago, Genady said:

Like any other religion I know, you translate and interpret ancient texts any way you like.

BTW, by today's definition of planet in astronomy, there are 8 planets in the Solar system, not 9. And if you count Pluto as a planet, then there are more than 9.

the   thing  you  mentioned that   i can  interpret  the  text  as the  way  i like   .....yes  i  agree  with  that

 

 

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Just now, studiot said:

That was not my understanding from the results of the New Horizon's  spaceprobe.

That what I've learned from the CalTech course, The Solar System Science. That was about 7 years ago.

Also, e.g., in Pluto - Wikipedia:

Quote

It is the largest known trans-Neptunian object by volume, by a small margin, but is slightly less massive than Eris. Like other Kuiper belt objects, Pluto is made primarily of ice and rock and is much smaller than the inner planets.

And, e.g., in Kuiper Belt Objects: Facts about the Kuiper Belt & KBOs | Space:

Quote

According to the International Astronomical Union (IAU)’s 2006 definition, a planet must be large enough to clear its neighborhood of debris. Pluto and Eris, surrounded by the Kuiper Belt, had clearly failed to do so. As a result, in 2006, Pluto, Eris, and the largest asteroid, Ceres, were reclassified by the IAU as dwarf planets. Two more dwarf planets, Haumea and Makemake, were discovered in the Kuiper Belt in 2008. 

 

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1 hour ago, studiot said:

Please elaborate.

Also our word for planet come from the ancient Greek meaning 'wanderer'. These referred to heavenly objects that did not track nightly across the sky the way the remote stars do, but moved in an apparently erratic way.

There are many objects in the sky that do this and in the clear middle eastern skies more can readily be seen. So it depends upon what your poets meant by planets.

If  i want to  translate  the  thing  and word  he   used to  describe  them  i   have to say :  he  said wheels  of the  ferris  wheel  or carousels  that  are   in the  sky  so  ....in fact   we  can have many  interpretations  from  them   as   Mr. Genady  said......

Edited by Saber
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Back in the USSR, there were "academic institutions" whose purpose of existence was interpreting old texts and records in a way that proves that everything has been first invented by Russians. They did a good job. People used to say, jokingly, "Russia, the birthplace of elephants..."

Edited by Genady
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At the time of those writings the sun and moon were considered planets, but the earth was not and some even counted venus and mercury twice as evening and morning stars. We know now that the sun and moon are not planets and that mercury and venus are only one planet not four. I'm not seeing anything profound in the poetry than can be interpreted as accurate discriptions of the heavens. What was the definition of planets at the time is also important, if I understand correctly only objects that moved against the background of stars counted but now days we only count 8 planets. I'm not sure if there is a definition of planet that would suggest only 9 objects are planets. 

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