Making some ethanol... [only for when you are reaaaaally bored !]

[StringJunky]

36 minutes ago, CharonY said:

IIRC methanol is a byproduct of pectin degradation pathways. Pure sugar would be safer than plant material,  for example.

I forgot pectin was in the equation.

[Moontanman]

21 hours ago, StringJunky said:

I forgot pectin was in the equation.

As any good moonshiner knows the first quart or so is methanol but after that it's ethanol. You can see the methanol in the first quart or so by the density differences in the two liquids. I have been there done that. 

[John Cuthber]

On 10/29/2022 at 4:08 PM, Moontanman said:

The first quart or so of the first run is poured out because It can contain methanol after that it is almost pure ethanol. 

That appears to be the answer to the question where does the methanol go to.

An interesting question in its own right, but not the one I asked.

 

There's not much pectin in grain, potatoes or most grapes.
There's a bit of low boiling crap in most wash- commonly acetaldehyde.


The density of ethanol and methanol are pretty damned similar; about 0.79
You can't really see a change in density- only a change in refractive index and ethanol and methanol are pretty similar on that score 1.36 vs 1.33 .
 

If there's any methanol present in the distillate then it must have been present in the wash.
If drinking that wash won't kill you due to methanol poisoning then the same is true of the product.
So any of the millions of "homemade wine" recipes will give you a product that , when distilled, won't contain enough methanol to kill you.

One of the most effective antidotes to methanol poisoning is ethanol.

The only ways to get methanol poisoning from moonshine involve being fundamentally stupid.
You can either selectively collect the distillate with the wrong boiling range (and throw away the actual ethanol which would save you) or you can start with something like industrial meths which contains a lot of methanol.

The thing about methanol in moonshine is that it's mainly a bogey man set up by law enforcement to protect alcohol duty revenue.

I am not going to comment on any practical knowledge I may have about methanol tasting sweet but ethanol tasting bitter.

Edited October 30, 2022 by John Cuthber

[Sensei]

9 hours ago, Moontanman said:

You can see the methanol in the first quart or so by the density differences in the two liquids. I have been there done that. 

???

Density of ethanol is 0.789 g/cm^3.

Density of methanol is 0.792 g/cm^3.

(and varies with temperature)

Good luck checking it out at home..

Methanol and ethanol have significantly different boiling points.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Sensei

[Moontanman]

14 hours ago, Sensei said:

???

Density of ethanol is 0.789 g/cm^3.

Density of methanol is 0.792 g/cm^3.

(and varies with temperature)

Good luck checking it out at home..

Methanol and ethanol have significantly different boiling points.

 

 

All I know is that when the first run starts methanol is the first liquid to come off and the moon shinners know how to tell the difference. It was shown to me as a difference in the way the fluid looks when you shake it up. I was a kid and I have no idea if what I was being told was true but it certainly looked that way. I watched them collect the fluid and shake it up to see how much methanol there was compared to the ethanol, the methanol laced fluid was poured out on the ground. 

15 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

That appears to be the answer to the question where does the methanol go to.

An interesting question in its own right, but not the one I asked.

 

There's not much pectin in grain, potatoes or most grapes.
There's a bit of low boiling crap in most wash- commonly acetaldehyde.


The density of ethanol and methanol are pretty damned similar; about 0.79
You can't really see a change in density- only a change in refractive index and ethanol and methanol are pretty similar on that score 1.36 vs 1.33 .
 

If there's any methanol present in the distillate then it must have been present in the wash.
If drinking that wash won't kill you due to methanol poisoning then the same is true of the product.
So any of the millions of "homemade wine" recipes will give you a product that , when distilled, won't contain enough methanol to kill you.

One of the most effective antidotes to methanol poisoning is ethanol.

The only ways to get methanol poisoning from moonshine involve being fundamentally stupid.
You can either selectively collect the distillate with the wrong boiling range (and throw away the actual ethanol which would save you) or you can start with something like industrial meths which contains a lot of methanol.

The thing about methanol in moonshine is that it's mainly a bogey man set up by law enforcement to protect alcohol duty revenue.

I am not going to comment on any practical knowledge I may have about methanol tasting sweet but ethanol tasting bitter.

What you say makes a lot of sense but having been there done that something is wonky, methanol is claimed to be removed in the first few quarts of distillate. Moonshiners say they can tell methanol from ethanol by observing the liquid while shaking it up. I was under that impression that ethanol was the antidote for antifreeze specifically ethylene glycol

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324807#what-is-antifreeze

Quote

Antifreeze typically contains ethylene glycol, methanol, and propylene glycol. Although these substances themselves are relatively nontoxic, the body rapidly metabolizes them into highly toxic alcohol byproducts.

Ethylene glycol is a water-soluble compound often present in household and car products. It is clear, odorless, and sweet-tasting, but it can irritate the eyes, skin, and airways.

If a person ingests products containing ethylene glycol, it can cause severe complications, such as kidney failure, permeant nerve damage, and, in some cases, death.

Methanol is a wood alcohol that manufacturers tend to use in paints, varnishes, and cleaners. Similar to ethylene glycol, methanol is highly toxic if a person ingests it.

Propylene glycol is a nontoxic substance. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approve the use of small quantities of propylene glycol in foods such as frostings and frozen dairy products.

https://diydistilling.com/how-to-avoid-methanol-when-distilling/

Quote

Methanol is metabolized into formic acid when consumed, which can destroy the optic nerve or lead to permanent blindness.

The exact amount can vary from one person to another based on many factors such as their size, body fat, and how much they’ve drunk and eaten.

No matter the quantity, it’s an industrial chemical and must not be consumed under any circumstances.

I may very well be mistaken on the shaking up thing, in fact I am almost certain I am, it has been more than 50 years for me but now that I have given this some serious thought I think the shaking up thing is part of testing for the level of ethanol to water. Not really sure, I spent a lot of time around stills but never really ran them. I did use my dirt bike to ferry supplies to the still occasionally... um what is the statute of limitations on this? 

[iNow]

The best home distillers I've known always discarded both tails of the distillate, up front when starting and at the back when finishing, keeping only that which was in the middle. 

[John Cuthber]

6 hours ago, Moontanman said:

All I know is that when the first run starts methanol is the first liquid to come off

How do you know that?
In particular, how do you "know" that methanol (which shouldn't be there) comes off first even though acetaldehyde has a lower boiling point?

 

6 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I was under that impression that ethanol was the antidote for antifreeze specifically ethylene glycol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_toxicity
says
Methanol poisoning can be treated with fomepizole, or if unavailable, ethanol may be used.^[7][13][14] Both drugs act to reduce the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition. Ethanol, the active ingredient in alcoholic beverages, acts as a competitive inhibitor by more effectively binding and saturating the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme in the liver, thus blocking the binding of methanol. Methanol is excreted by the kidneys without being converted into the very toxic metabolites formaldehyde and formic acid. Alcohol dehydrogenase instead enzymatically converts ethanol to acetaldehyde, a much less toxic organic

The mechanism is comparable for glycol, where the ethanol keeps the enzyme too busy to make oxalic acid.

5 hours ago, iNow said:

The best home distillers I've known always discarded both tails of the distillate, up front when starting and at the back when finishing, keeping only that which was in the middle. 

That's sensible; you get rid of a lot of rubbish that way

Edited October 31, 2022 by John Cuthber

[TheVat]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Methanol is metabolized into formic acid when consumed, which can destroy the optic nerve or lead to permanent blindness.

Remember, kids: don't eat the ants.

[MigL]

Damn !
I was just about to snack down on some choccolate coated ants.
( all this time, I thought my optic nerve problems were due to Glaucoma )

Edited October 31, 2022 by MigL

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Damn !
I was just about to snack down on some choccolate coated ants.
( all this time, I thought my optic nerve problems were due to Glaucoma )

"Now we're favored guests, treated to the finest in beverages that make you blind!" -- Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

[Sensei]

Most of humanity is blind without drinking methanol....

 

[John Cuthber]

14 hours ago, MigL said:

Damn !
I was just about to snack down on some choccolate coated ants.
( all this time, I thought my optic nerve problems were due to Glaucoma )

Formates aren't particularly toxic
https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds?partNumber=S648500&productDescription=SODIUM+FORMATE+CERTIFIED+500G&vendorId=VN00033897&countryCode=US&language=en
I suspect that the problem is that formic acid is produced within the eye and causes local damage, but I'm not sure

[Moontanman]

21 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

How do you know that?
In particular, how do you "know" that methanol (which shouldn't be there) comes off first even though acetaldehyde has a lower boiling point?

I only know what I was told while helping out the moonshiners. Where do you get that methanol shouldn't be there? 

21 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

 

 

 

[John Cuthber]

5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Where do you get that methanol shouldn't be there? 

Yeast does not make significant methanol.
Methanol is formed from pectin (though the yield is poor).

There's very little pectin in grain.
So, once again, where is this purported methanol in moonshine coming from?

I had a look on the net and found this
https://www.ijstr.org/final-print/feb2020/Simultaneous-Gas-Chromatographic-Quantitation-Of-Ethanol-And-Methanol-From-Beer.pdf
which says 
According to published information on alcoholic fermentation congeners detected in various alcoholic beverages, methanol levels are as follows; beer (1-27 mg/L), wine (8-151 mg/L), fortified wine (125-329 mg/L), brandy (176-4766 mg/L), whiskey (6-328 mg/L), rum (6- 131 mg/L), and vodka (0-170 mg/L).

If a litre of weak (3% ABV) beer contains 27mg of methanol and 30 ml of ethanol then, unless you screw up the distillation, the moonshine will contain a thousand times more ethanol than methanol. The ethanol would kill you long before the methanol would.

The wine has more methanol, but also more ethanol, so , again, it's not the methanol that will kill you.

 

6 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I only know what I was told while helping out the moonshiners.

Were they chemists?

[Moontanman]

14 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Yeast does not make significant methanol.
Methanol is formed from pectin (though the yield is poor).

There's very little pectin in grain.
So, once again, where is this purported methanol in moonshine coming from?

I had a look on the net and found this
https://www.ijstr.org/final-print/feb2020/Simultaneous-Gas-Chromatographic-Quantitation-Of-Ethanol-And-Methanol-From-Beer.pdf
which says 
According to published information on alcoholic fermentation congeners detected in various alcoholic beverages, methanol levels are as follows; beer (1-27 mg/L), wine (8-151 mg/L), fortified wine (125-329 mg/L), brandy (176-4766 mg/L), whiskey (6-328 mg/L), rum (6- 131 mg/L), and vodka (0-170 mg/L).

If a litre of weak (3% ABV) beer contains 27mg of methanol and 30 ml of ethanol then, unless you screw up the distillation, the moonshine will contain a thousand times more ethanol than methanol. The ethanol would kill you long before the methanol would.

The wine has more methanol, but also more ethanol, so , again, it's not the methanol that will kill you.

 

Were they chemists?

I can't find a conversion to allow me to see how 27mg of methanol compares in volume or weight to 30ml of ethanol. Or how much methanol is contained in the first run off of moonshine made from corn compared to ethanol in the same run. 

https://toxedfoundation.org/methanol-toxicity/

Quote

How Much Methanol is Toxic?

The lethal human dose of pure methanol is estimated to be about 2.5 ounces.  This is the median lethal dose, meaning about 50% of people that consume this much may die.  Consuming about half an ounce of pure methanol could cause blindness.   By comparison, the lethal human dose of ethanol is estimated to be about 6 ounces for an average sized person.   Since alcoholic drinks are usually 45% ethanol or less, 6 ounces of pure ethanol is equal to about 14 drinks (assuming a drink with a 1 oz shot of a typical liquor).  If a typical bottle of liquor was all methanol instead of ethanol it would only take about 1 drink to cause permanent blindness.   Please note that these are estimates for comparative purposes.

I'm not a chemist John, neither was my grandfather, I did get some high school chemistry but my grandfather only got the 6th grade. He was lucky considering the state of the WV school system in the 1910,s. But considering your cavalier attitude to methanol I think I'd rather drink my grandfather's shine than any you would make.  

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

The lethal human dose of pure methanol is estimated to be about 2.5 ounces. 

And that's without the "antidote" effect of the ethanol.
The data above show that beer- which is essentially what moonshine is distilled from contains at most 27 mg of methanol per litre.
2.5 ounces is about 70 grams or 70,000 mg.
So, ignoring the fact that ethanol acts as an antidote, you would need to extract the methanol from 70,000/28 = 2500 litres of beer to get enough methanol to kill you.
Does your still hold 2500 litres of wash?
If not then there simply isn't enough methanol in the whole thing to kill you.
 

 

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I can't find a conversion to allow me to see how 27mg of methanol compares in volume or weight to 30ml of ethanol.

here's one
 

 

19 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

, the moonshine will contain a thousand times more ethanol than methanol.

 

 

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

But considering your cavalier attitude to methanol

I have a cavalier attitude to things that are far too small to be important.
But, as I already pointed out, there's other junk in there which you don't want to drink.

 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 7:26 PM, John Cuthber said:

That's sensible; you get rid of a lot of rubbish that way

So "topping and tailing" is a good idea.
 

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

The data above show that beer- which is essentially what moonshine is distilled from contains at most 27 mg of methanol per litre.

Distillation of beer (<=6%), would give you very poor yield..

I used extremophilic yeasts capable to survive up to 21.3% (I managed to have 19.5-20).

https://www.google.com/search?q=extremophilic+yeasts

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

2.5 ounces is about 70 grams or 70,000 mg.
So, ignoring the fact that ethanol acts as an antidote, you would need to extract the methanol from 70,000/28 = 2500 litres of beer to get enough methanol to kill you.
Does your still hold 2500 litres of wash?

Does your still hold 2500 litres of wash?

How often do you distill beer?

Have you ever try to make beer? The whole procedure is completely different..

21 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

and vodka (0-170 mg/L).

..because it is already distilled..

 

@Moontanman If you want to have good quality get chemistry lab equipment. borosilicate glass. graham condenser. dephlegmator. vacuum distiller (for final, 3rd pass).

https://www.google.com/search?q=graham+condenser

https://www.google.com/search?q=dephlegmator

I have similar to this, which is a mixture of both:

Distillation lab equipment often has a built-in thermometer, so you can see if that's the temperature at which methanol and other crap evaporates, or ethanol.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Sensei

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

And that's without the "antidote" effect of the ethanol.
The data above show that beer- which is essentially what moonshine is distilled from contains at most 27 mg of methanol per litre.
2.5 ounces is about 70 grams or 70,000 mg.
So, ignoring the fact that ethanol acts as an antidote, you would need to extract the methanol from 70,000/28 = 2500 litres of beer to get enough methanol to kill you.
Does your still hold 2500 litres of wash?
If not then there simply isn't enough methanol in the whole thing to kill you.
 

 

We are not talking about the average of the entire batch of distillate only the first gallon or so. Take a big swig of it, I know the moonshiners wouldn't, if they won't it's pretty good bet you wouldn't want to either. 

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Distillation of beer (<=6%), would give you very poor yield..

I used extremophilic yeasts capable to survive up to 21.3% (I managed to have 19.5-20).

https://www.google.com/search?q=extremophilic+yeasts

How often do you distill beer?

Have you ever try to make beer? The whole procedure is completely different..

..because it is already distilled..

 

@Moontanman If you want to have good quality get chemistry lab equipment. borosilicate glass. graham condenser. dephlegmator. vacuum distiller (for final, 3rd pass).

https://www.google.com/search?q=graham+condenser

https://www.google.com/search?q=dephlegmator

I have similar to this, which is a mixture of both:

Distillation lab equipment often has a built-in thermometer, so you can see if that's the temperature at which methanol and other crap evaporates, or ethanol.

Thanks but I think I'll get my tequila at the liquor store, quite a bit cheaper and tastes better than anything I would be likely distill. I have considered making cherry moonshine... but lack of money for good distillation equipment keeps me from it.

[Sensei]

14 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Thanks but I think I'll get my tequila at the liquor store, quite a bit cheaper and tastes better than anything I would be likely distill. I have considered making cherry moonshine... but lack of money for good distillation equipment keeps me from it.

The only really expensive part from my list is electronic vacuum pump. It is here for 300-500 USD. But it can be temporarily replaced by water vacuum pump (aka "water aspirator"). Ultra cheap. Like $5. I could 3d print it for 0.1 USD.

 

[John Cuthber]

40 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

We are not talking about the average of the entire batch of distillate only the first gallon or so.

I'm still trying to get an answer to this.

3 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Does your still hold 2500 litres of wash?

 

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

How often do you distill beer?

Have you ever try to make beer? The whole procedure is completely different..

I am not allowed to distill beer in the UK; I don't have a license to do so.
But the people who make whisky make it by distilling beer. They typically make beer that's stronger than the usual version. About 7 to 10 %

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2010/aug/23/science-art-whisky-making

but whisky is made by distilling beer.


I have made beer and wine.

Did you somehow imagine that I thought that you made beer by distillation?
That's not what I said, is it?

Just in case you wondered about my credentials; I'm an enthusiastic drinker of spirits and have visited distilleries in 3 different countries. One of them, I was there working
And my dad worked in a brewery for decades.

 Gakusei, next time, before you assume I am wrong about the processes, you might want to check that you have read what I said properly.

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

23 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

and vodka (0-170 mg/L).

..because it is already distilled..

So, if it's distillation that matters, brandy will be the same...

 

23 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

brandy (176-4766 mg/L)

So, once again, it seem you are wrong. Confident, but wrong.

[Moontanman]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:12 PM, Sensei said:

The only really expensive part from my list is electronic vacuum pump. It is here for 300-500 USD. But it can be temporarily replaced by water vacuum pump (aka "water aspirator"). Ultra cheap. Like $5. I could 3d print it for 0.1 USD.

 

Hmmm maybe not expensive for you. 

[Sensei]

27 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Hmmm maybe not expensive for you. 

Buy a 3d printer and you will print whatever you want or design yourself.. including yet another 3d printer or machine to make free filament from used PET bottles that you foolishly throw in the trash, for example:

 

[John Cuthber]

If you are making alcohol for drinking, you certainly don't need vacuum distillation- not bothering to add the most expensive and unnecessary bit makes things cheaper.

(Buying a 3d printer etc is unlikely to make things cheaper)

If you are making high purity alcohol for lab use then... you still don't need a vacuum still.
 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by John Cuthber

[mistermack]

The law in the UK regarding alcohol is very different for wine and beer compared to distillation.

You can brew as much beer as you like. And wine too. What you can't do is sell it or trade it. 

With a still, you need a licence. You can distil as much as you like, of products on which you have paid the duty. But to produce distilled products from the raw materials, you enter an expensive minefield that effectively stops it happening. There is some talk of loosening the regulations to allow smaller craft distilleries to operate, but at the moment it's beyond them. The inspection regime is extremely rigorous, beyone small operators. And when you have made your whisky etc. it can only be stored in highly regulated bonded warehouse facilities, which are subject to very rigorous regulations, inspections and regular auditing.

On the subject of methanol, a lot depends on what you are fermenting. Generally, fruit based stuff is highest in methanol production. There have been many deaths due to methanol around the world, but usually in countries that are less regulated generally. Banana can produce high levels, and many other fruits. The type of yeast you use can have quite a big bearing on methanol production as well.

Moonshiners generally know exactly how much to discard, at the start of the distillation. It's not particularly critical, you can apply a simple equation and most will have it in their heads. Apart from methanol, the first part of the run also produces a lot of nasty ingredients, that make it taste foul, so there's no incentive to cut corners. You can use a highly accurate thermometer to tell you what's happening. Warming up the mash slowly, the methanol comes off at a considerably lower temperatue than ethanol. So the temperature will rise to the boiling point of methanol, and then stay at that point, until it's gone. Then the temperature starts to rise again, to the boiling point of ethanol, when you start collecting and saving your desired product.

The problem with ice distilling is that you don't drive off the methanol and other nasties, so you're likely to get severe hangovers from it, even if it doesn't make you sick. I guess you could use heat to drive off the nasties first, and then finish off with freezing.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

The law in the UK regarding alcohol is very different for wine and beer compared to distillation.

You can brew as much beer as you like. And wine too. What you can't do is sell it or trade it. 

What you can't do is ban it...