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Ketanji Brown Jackson to be first Black woman to sit on Supreme Court - Jordan Peterson has something to say - is he right or is he in the wrong?


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27 minutes ago, beecee said:

I am never purposely offensive to anyone if I can help it. I'm simply saying that sometimes political correctness can be taken too far, and have given a few examples. 

Don't worry about me. We are having elections in Australia in late May, and I am doing my little part in getting rid of all the dumbfucks and arsehats in Australian political life. 

Don't be a fossil, and seek to endeavour to understand what's changing. This has happened since the beginning of civilisation, and it is we, as aging people, that are stuck in a culture and manners that is  passing by to become history... and so it will be for those who are making the waves now.

 

Edited by StringJunky
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28 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Most of the Republicans questioning Ketanji Brown Jackson made no attempt to get her name right. People not fit to shine her shoes disrespected her that way. Correctness is much more respectful.

Yes correctness certainly is much more respectful, and speaking as an outsider ( you know a non American) and taking into account my limited knowledge on American politics, I have taken the approach that Ketanji (hope I pronounced that right) being qualified for the position, and Biden understanding the general lack of representation on the judges panel of black females, decided that it would be appropriate to appoint her. Which you obviously agree with. I make that decision/opinion without fear nor favour from either left or right, but on moral grounds and justice seeing to be done.

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You gave strawman-worthy examples so you could show how easy "political correctness" can go too far. What we're talking about here, in this tangent to the Jackson SCOTUS appointment, is the disrespect shown to people when you mispronounce their name, or refer to their heritage by some offensive colonial term they've been forced to live with for decades. 

We're living in a time when our human capabilities for communication and cooperation are at their highest point. We're being exposed to many new ideas, peoples, traditions, behaviors, and processes. People are asking you to care about more than yourself, and part of that is simple respect for their ways. As more diverse people gain seats of power, it should be important to us that all can find representation and dignity.

No, I gave a factual account of a 40ish something female bank clerk that I asked a question of re money transfer, and who went out of her way to put me on the right path, and I replied "great  thanks love, you're a bloody angel" she in turn replied " that's OK sweety with a broad grin on her dial. Or how about the paramedic addressing my Mrs as "love" and "sweety" ? Should I have accosted him? corrected him? Pulled him into gear? 

The tangent you speak of and mispronouncement of her name I am not aware of but agree. And I am also not aware of the any referral by some offensive colonial term...perhaps I missed it, as I have not fully followed this thread, and simply expressed my feelings that the objection to Biden announcing he was going to elect a black female, is a storm in a teacup by those pushing that objection.....Incidentally and more then likley I probably would agree with the term you are referring to as being insulting, racist and wrong.

Instead you prefer to take me apart because I feel on some occasions that political correctness can be taken too far...going from the sublime to the ridiculious in fact. 

I also have another 'theory" That the rise of right wing loonies like Trump and our very own ScoMo, can be put down to the application of the extreme left political agenda by some.....a balancing act if you will. I prefer to take what I see as a  reasonable approach, irrespective of the politcal spectrum. I was once when a Union delegate, referred to as a rotten right wing bosses stooge at the end of a five week strike...the same arvo, I was referred to by another as a dirty commo bastard!!

Apologies if this is all off topic, but any way again, I see the appointement and the pre announcing of the appointment of a black female to the panel, as just and appropriate for the reasons I have given previously.

 

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4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Don't be a fossil, and seek to endeavour to understand what's changing. 

It's challenging but interesting as well.

Along the lines of removing "oriental" from your lexicon, I found out a few weeks ago that I've been abusing the Hindi greeting "Namaste" ever since I first heard it. Apparently some Americans went to India to learn yoga from the masters there, and brought the word back but used it poorly. It's supposed to be reserved for addressing the yogis, an honorific term, one that shouldn't be used for just anyone. People from India cringe when they hear us say it along the lines of "Have a nice day". 

I feel a bit silly now, like I've been mistakenly calling you "Your Majesty", and thinking you'd appreciate it.

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31 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Don't be a fossil, and seek to endeavour to understand what's changing. This has happened since the beginning of civilisation, and it is we, as aging people, that are stuck in a culture and manners that is  passing by to become history... and so it will be for those who are making the waves now.

As an official fossil and an old bastard, I take on change as I see it...some I accept, others I don't, or if you like that which is old, isn't necessarilly bad, and thatwhich is 'new, isn't necessarilly good or better. I still hate heavy metal, rap crap and know nothing about music beyond the 80's. I prefer the Greek Angel and the King. 

 

4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Along the lines of removing "oriental" from your lexicon, I found out a few weeks ago that I've been abusing the Hindi greeting "Namaste" ever since I first heard it. Apparently some Americans went to India to learn yoga from the masters there, and brought the word back but used it poorly. It's supposed to be reserved for addressing the yogis, an honorific term, one that shouldn't be used for just anyone. People from India cringe when they hear us say it along the lines of "Have a nice day". .

Perhaps what needs and should be considered is the "intent" of which you used the word. My best mates often call me an old bastard, and I reciprocate in kind. But if some young punk called me an old bastard walking along the street, I probably would object and express my objection objectively!

Edited by beecee
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23 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It's challenging but interesting as well.

Along the lines of removing "oriental" from your lexicon, I found out a few weeks ago that I've been abusing the Hindi greeting "Namaste" ever since I first heard it. Apparently some Americans went to India to learn yoga from the masters there, and brought the word back but used it poorly. It's supposed to be reserved for addressing the yogis, an honorific term, one that shouldn't be used for just anyone. People from India cringe when they hear us say it along the lines of "Have a nice day". 

I feel a bit silly now, like I've been mistakenly calling you "Your Majesty", and thinking you'd appreciate it.

So toward tying this to the topic at hand Phi, what effort have you made to find out how black women actually feel about Biden's pre-announcement/(announcement of race and gender prior to announcing the pick)?

The thoughts of the young black girl in Koti's link seemed to have been set aside pretty quickly. Not saying you in particular did so.

I don't think we need to agree with her completely to respect her opinion.

Or is simply calling her the right names and gender showing sufficient respect in your mind?

Edited by J.C.MacSwell
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5 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The thoughts of the young black girl in Koti's link seemed to have been set aside pretty quickly. Not saying you in particular did so.

I don't think we need to agree with her completely to respect her opinion.

Sure, she has an opinion. But again, and I'l shout it from the tree tops....if we have 9 white male Americans on your supreme court, and a vacancy occurs, and among all the qualified candidates, is a black female American, wouldn't it be appropriate, wouldn't it be morally correct, to instill into the American people in general, that justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done, and that while all judges idealistically should represent all Americans, that a female black American be considered, as long as she fits the bill of being as quailfied as the other candidates?

Again, I see it as a non event. 

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Affirmative appears to be  polarising amongst African-American scholars as well:

Quote

From Perception to Viewpoint: Four African American Perspectives on Affirmative Action JOHN PANKOW

Communicated by: Dr. Elizabeth A. Bennion Department of Political Science

ABSTRACT In examining the views of four contemporary African American scholars, the research objective is twofold: First, to uncover some examples of societal trends which are particularly meaningful to contemporary black scholars in the formation of their viewpoints of affirmative action; second, to draw comparisons and contrasts between opposing viewpoints to see if some common concerns and themes exist, which could help bring compromise to this issue.

The four scholars are Derrick Bell, Theodore Shaw, Brian Jones, and Shelby Steele. Bell and Shaw argue in favor of continuing affirmative action programs.

Jones and Steele argue against these programs. Bell and Shaw offer evidence to show that despite the civil rights gains in the last half of the century, racist structures are still entrenched in American society today. They argue that this evidence clearly demonstrates the continued need for affirmative action programs to counteract these forces. Steele and Jones argue that affirmative action programs, as practiced today, tend to benefit the least disadvantaged members of the groups they mean to assist. They also argue there are other crucial factors which are inhibiting black advancement. They believe that illegitimacy, unsafe neighborhoods, black-on-black crime, and the disintegrating black family unit greatly contribute to African American poverty and are a greater barrier to black advancement than are the racist structures that still exist.

The results of the research indicate that both the proponents and the opponents of affirmative action tend to cling to their own viewpoints, often in a noticeably myopic fashion. The men on each side of the debate give virtually no attention to arguments which are central to the viewpoints of their opponents. The research also noted, regrettably, that the debate occasionally degenerated into a series of unprofessional personal remarks, from both sides, directed toward an opponent. This observation mirrors, to some extent, the tension that exists among the general public about affirmative action programs. However, until the scholars in this debate can argue persuasively and respectfully for their own position on this issue, there may not be much hope that the nation, as a whole, will be able to do so either.

file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/19836-Article%20Text-43974-1-10-20150825.pdf

It appears that they have the same problems as we do discussing this.

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28 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

So toward tying this to the topic at hand Phi, what effort have you made to find out how black women actually feel about Biden's pre-announcement/(announcement of race and gender prior to announcing the pick)?

My TikTok feed is mostly black women like Lizzo singing About Damn Time. I haven't seen a single one (other than the woman in koti's link) misrepresenting this appointment as an affirmative action hire, so I wonder how prevalent this stance is in the black community. She's got her opinion and I think it's wrong. If she wants to ask Judge Jackson whether she was "handed" her job because she's a black woman, I would encourage the young woman to do so. Then again, I've never seen a definition of "affirmative action" that wasn't crying about outright discrimination against white males, so perhaps it means something different to you.

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Actually, I was purposefully trying to be disrespectful ( not too much so ) with the term 'gay Oriental', hoping someone would call me out on it, and I could use it to make my point.
However I thought the disrespectful term was the 'gay' part.
I stand corrected.

But is homosexual Asian specific enough ?
After all. Asia stretches East from the Urals to the Pacific Ocean, and from the Arctic Ocean to the Indian Ocean.
Oriental specifies South-East Asia.

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

It's supposed to be reserved for addressing the yogis, an honorific term, one that shouldn't be used for just anyone.

Interesting, but I would appreciate further explanation.
India had,still has an active 'caste' system in many areas, where opportunities, and terms of addressing, are reserved for spcific groups. Am I to assume you think specific 'caste' groups are deserving of those opportunities, and of the honorific terms, simply because of the lottery of birth ?
Or do you think everyone is deserving of the same opportunities, and to be addressed, or not, with the same terms ?

Maybe I'm just on the wrong side of 'contemporary' thinking, because the first case smells of discrimination to me, while the second, which you mentioned and called wrong, does not.                                                                        

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3 minutes ago, MigL said:

Actually, I was purposefully trying to be disrespectful ( not too much so ) with the term 'gay Oriental', hoping someone would call me out on it, and I could use it to make my point.                                                                  

I'm not Oriental, but I am pretty gay. Gay as in light hearted and carefree nature 😅...or if you like, happy as a pig in shit, hoping that's not insulting to any pigs!

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44 minutes ago, beecee said:

Sure, she has an opinion. But again, and I'l shout it from the tree tops....if we have 9 white male Americans on your supreme court, and a vacancy occurs, and among all the qualified candidates, is a black female American, wouldn't it be appropriate, wouldn't it be morally correct, to instill into the American people in general, that justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done, and that while all judges idealistically should represent all Americans, that a female black American be considered, as long as she fits the bill of being as quailfied as the other candidates?

Again, I see it as a non event. 

Pretty much everyone in this thread has expressed this same opinion. So we don't agree with her on that if that is in fact what she is saying in that 45 second clip. Can we not respect her opinion and consider what might motivate them? Would she feel the same way if KJB had been simply nominated as the best available candidate?

 

46 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

My TikTok feed is mostly black women like Lizzo singing About Damn Time. I haven't seen a single one (other than the woman in koti's link) misrepresenting this appointment as an affirmative action hire, so I wonder how prevalent this stance is in the black community. She's got her opinion and I think it's wrong. If she wants to ask Judge Jackson whether she was "handed" her job because she's a black woman, I would encourage the young woman to do so. Then again, I've never seen a definition of "affirmative action" that wasn't crying about outright discrimination against white males, so perhaps it means something different to you.

You want to encourage people to ask KJB if she thinks she was handed her job because she's a black women?

I think a fairer question and on the only real point of contention that seems to remain in this thread would be to ask KJB how she feels about it being announced prior to her nomination that a black women would be chosen.

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@MSC

I apologize for my posting behaviour also.
I felt I was being unfairly attacked, with insinuations about my character, and I responded in kind.
I think we both want a more inclusive society, and we both agree that KBJ was a good choice.
Hopefully, you also realize that J Biden can make mistakes, and it is our duty ( the American populace ) to call him out on those mistakes. Even if the populace don't all agree they are mistakes.

Hope there are no hard feelings.

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2 hours ago, MigL said:

@MSC

I apologize for my posting behaviour also.
I felt I was being unfairly attacked, with insinuations about my character, and I responded in kind.
I think we both want a more inclusive society, and we both agree that KBJ was a good choice.
Hopefully, you also realize that J Biden can make mistakes, and it is our duty ( the American populace ) to call him out on those mistakes. Even if the populace don't all agree they are mistakes.

Hope there are no hard feelings.

None at all my friend. And they were unfair attacks so I understand. 

I do realize that Biden can make mistakes and he has made plenty. I suppose I am currently less able to think of any that concern me too much aside from his earlier career. I mean; when he was younger he said a few things that I think we both would agree were racist. He changed with the times I guess but as an auld yin, I imagine he still utters something privately where people are a like "dude, I know you're old, but you can't say shit like that anymore." 

I suppose something that also makes me feel sorry for him, is that I don't think he really wanted the presidency this time around. I think he only went for it because giving people more choices than Trump or Sanders was more important for the USA than what he wanted. There is Valor in that act. I think it does reveal a quality of character that is ideal for leadership. 

I wish he had gotten in with more power for his party in the Senate though, I feel like he could have done so much more with more potential to pass legislation and he's not going to get much of a fair shake at it.

That said though, hyperpartisanship being what it is, it could be a long time before anybody has a supermajority in the senate again. If it happens anytime soon, it'll probably be due to a despicable gerrymandering pulled by one of the parties. 

Even though you're Canadian, I still think you do have a right through neighborly interest and concern to comment on the situation here in the US. I'm not a citizen and can only vote in state and municipal elections due to policy in this particular state giving me a vote. Although my daughter is Scottish-American... that's basically Canadian right? 😆 I even have some French ancestry!

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10 minutes ago, MSC said:

Even though you're Canadian, I still think you do have a right through neighborly interest and concern to comment on the situation here in the US.

Sometimes I feel your Government/President has a larger effect on my life than my own Government/Prime Minister.
Most of the World breathed a sigh of relief when D Trump was defeated.
( although he doesn't seem to have realized it yet )

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32 minutes ago, MigL said:

Most of the World breathed a sigh of relief when D Trump was defeated.
( although he doesn't seem to have realized it yet )

Mostly because, even though he lost the last election (and the one before that too by several million votes in the popular), he very much has not yet been defeated… and most of the world doesn’t seem to have realized it yet.

That’s OT here, though. 

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10 minutes ago, iNow said:

Mostly because, even though he lost the last election (and the one before that too by several million votes in the popular), he very much has not yet been defeated… and most of the world doesn’t seem to have realized it yet.

That’s OT here, though. 

I'll breathe a bigger sigh of relief if we escape another Trump or Trumpite term in 2024. Apparently Ron DeSantis is thinking of running against Trump... which tbh also fills me with dread. He's going to run on this massive anti-pc rhetoric and will be basically running as a Trump impersonater. 

I don't know if it is that off topic though, discussing the history and future around this subject. But then we have discussed this to death. My heads spinning and I'm distracted in RL a lot right now. Daughter is sick and I've not really been sleeping that much. 

There is another thread that has captured my interest but its kind of quiet on it. Gonna see if I can kick up more discussion there just drafting my first comment in it. 

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9 hours ago, MSC said:

There is another thread that has captured my interest but its kind of quiet on it. Gonna see if I can kick up more discussion there

Post something controversial.
That always seems to bring everyone out to play.

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On 4/22/2022 at 11:00 PM, beecee said:

Perhaps what needs and should be considered is the "intent" of which you used the word. My best mates often call me an old bastard, and I reciprocate in kind. But if some young punk called me an old bastard walking along the street, I probably would object and express my objection objectively!

I think this is the key point for most PC issues and also to the question over Biden's pre-announcement. 

It seems intent often gets either lost in translation, ignored or worse, twisted out of context.

I have friends family etc... who I often insult out of fondness similar to your best mates. This if heard by others may seem very offensive especially if there is any cross cultural differences. 

The term "love" and "sweetie" which you previously mentioned are ones I'm familiar with but are much less often used these days. It tends to be the "older" generations that continue with it while the younger generations do now tend to view such terms as offensive and demeaning. 

Going back to the OP, my query over the pre-announcement was, what was Biden's intent? (the intention behind the announcement, not the actual selection)  If what I suspect (I could be completely wrong) was his intent then yeah I feel it could be demeaning to female black ladies, and possibly black people and females in general. What trumps this though is the actual final selection, so well done to Biden for this.  

On 4/23/2022 at 2:15 PM, MigL said:

Post something controversial.
That always seems to bring everyone out to play.

Yeah it always spice things up some!

On 4/22/2022 at 2:29 PM, iNow said:

It doesn’t. All that matters is that people like you and me who otherwise agree and align on 97% or more of what matters in our day-to-day lives keep fussing and arguing with each other over silly petty nonsense instead of focusing our energies on coming together and solving actual problems that affect our actual lives and actual families and collective futures. 

Absolutely, If only everyone shared the same outlook maybe the world would be a better place. But here we are fussing and arguing over petty nonsense that will make no difference at all, except maybe raise one or two blood pressure levels. 

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8 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Going back to the OP, my query over the pre-announcement was, what was Biden's intent? (the intention behind the announcement, not the actual selection)  If what I suspect (I could be completely wrong) was his intent

The announcement was made at a campaign speech in South Carolina, which has a large population of black people who tend to vote for democrats, if that helps.

8 hours ago, Intoscience said:

then yeah I feel it could be demeaning to female black ladies, and possibly black people and females in general.

How so?

I'm having trouble seeing how a promise that certain people - not just white men - will have representation in his administration is demeaning.

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41 minutes ago, swansont said:

I'm having trouble seeing how a promise that certain people - not just white men - will have representation in his administration is demeaning.

Apparently, because it's racist to point out the demographic makeup of the court... somehow? I don't know anymore. It's the same level of pedanticness that turns people off of the PC thing. 

Besides intent; there is also the spirit in which something is said or done. Ultimately this was all done in the spirit of inclusion and equity. As for the objections, I don't know how you argue it is with the same spirit as the above, when what is being objected to is inclusive speech and an open desire for more fairness. It certainly wasn't for Ted Cruz. 

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5 minutes ago, MSC said:

Apparently, because it's racist to point out the demographic makeup of the court... somehow? I don't know anymore. It's the same level of pedanticness that turns people off of the PC thing. 

The promise didn't actually point out the demographic makeup of the court, but everyone knows what it was, and the promise was that a large voter demographic of South Carolina democrats would have representation. 

Not hard to connect the dots, IMO.

 

5 minutes ago, MSC said:

Besides intent; there is also the spirit in which something is said or done. Ultimately this was all done in the spirit of inclusion and equity. As for the objections, I don't know how you argue it is with the same spirit as the above, when what is being objected to is inclusive speech and an open desire for more fairness. It certainly wasn't for Ted Cruz. 

I've said my piece on the narrative being sold, and how its hogwash, so no need to revisit that.

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The argument is that everyone wants to be selected based on merit. By announcing the demographic criteria, it may suggest the appointed person was chosen for reasons other than their competence, experience, and qualifications. 

I don’t agree with it, but that’s the position. 

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