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Length contraction in a block universe must be an illusion


34student
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2 hours ago, 34student said:

Really?  Given the context, you have no idea what I mean?

Given the context we discuss spacetime with four dimensions, ”frozen 3d universe” is ambiguous. There are at least three interpretations that are very different.

2 hours ago, 34student said:

It means a physical state of the universe.

Please try again. And provide a reference to more information.

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On 11/2/2021 at 4:22 AM, 34student said:

Yes, the muons I will admit are haunting me.  They are the best and only strong counter point that I have seen yet.

That's a disguised way of saying, that the first example given re Muons, totally and completely invalidate my thoughts/beliefs.

4 hours ago, 34student said:

Can you please answer my question first.  If you can give a serious attempt at answering my question, then you may understand my issue.

Your question has been answered and refuted. SR remains valid and by extentsion, GR. 

 

Edited by beecee
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Some excellent videos illustrating the validity of length contraction, including the repeat of one already given, which it seems (as with all the answers to your quandary) you have missed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Poz_95_0RA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NN_m2yKAAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPzGAksFCbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxW6_E3uLuo

They are all relatively short videos...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ghideon said:

Given the context we discuss spacetime with four dimensions, ”frozen 3d universe” is ambiguous. There are at least three interpretations that are very different.

Please try again. And provide a reference to more information.

The universe in a given moment in time.

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1 hour ago, 34student said:

The universe in a given moment in time.

Please try again, and please provide a reference to more information. Something based on mainstream science would be good. 

Edited by Ghideon
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21 hours ago, 34student said:

This is very interesting.  I did not know that there was a distance that all observers can agree on.  Is this an absolute distance or something?

Yes, for the simple reason that the space-time distance between two events is the same for all observers.

However, there are many combinations of x, y, z, and t that give the same space-time distance. What the values of the coordinates are depends on the movement of the observer relative the train. So asking what the length of the train is without knowing how the observer moves relative to the train, is impossible.

BTW, that you did not know about this space-time distance, tells me you do not understand what is meant with the 'block universe'. And if you have a wrong picture of it, your conclusions will be wrong too.

Otherwise you would also not say something like this:

18 hours ago, 34student said:

The universe in a given moment in time.

  There is no 'given time of the universe' is a block universe.

Edited by Eise
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1 hour ago, Eise said:

There is no 'given time of the universe' is a block universe.

Just too late to edit it. Read:

There is no 'given time of the universe' in a block universe.

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1 hour ago, Eise said:

Yes, for the simple reason that the space-time distance between two events is the same for all observers.

However, there are many combinations of x, y, z, and t that give the same space-time distance. What the values of the coordinates are depends on the movement of the observer relative the train. So asking what the length of the train is without knowing how the observer moves relative to the train, is impossible.

BTW, that you did not know about this space-time distance, tells me you do not understand what is meant with the 'block universe'. And if you have a wrong picture of it, your conclusions will be wrong too.

Otherwise you would also not say something like this:

  There is no 'given time of the universe' is a block universe.

Yes, I did not know some of what you have mentioned.

Having said that, this seems to raise all of my issues all over again.  What does this mean for the OP.  Is the train 1 meter, 100 meters or something else?  And are these length contractions really just illusions of the actual distance, the space-time distance?

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38 minutes ago, 34student said:

Yes, I did not know some of what you have mentioned.

Using this new insights you may read the thread from the start. This time you may find how your questions have already been answered?

Because as far as I can tell, all* the members that have answered you knew about Eise's information and accounted for that. 

 

*) I think mods have handled some exceptions 

Edited by Ghideon
missing sentence added
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8 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Using this new insights you may read the thread from the start. This time you may find how your questions have already been  answered?

Please, show me the post that says there is an absolute length and time.  This is the only thing new to me since I made the OP. 

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7 minutes ago, 34student said:

Please, show me the post that says there is an absolute length and time. 

It looks like you did not yet understand Eise. Absolute length and time does not exist.

 

Space-time distance invariance, on the other hand, is first mentioned in

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/126011-length-contraction-in-a-block-universe-must-be-an-illusion/?do=findComment&comment=1189820

 

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2 hours ago, 34student said:

Yes, I did not know some of what you have mentioned.

Having said that, this seems to raise all of my issues all over again.  What does this mean for the OP.  Is the train 1 meter, 100 meters or something else?  And are these length contractions really just illusions of the actual distance, the space-time distance?

Asking the questions again hoping for different answers is not a viable approach.

1 hour ago, 34student said:

Please, show me the post that says there is an absolute length and time.  This is the only thing new to me since I made the OP. 

How about you show us this post, since AFAICT nobody has made this claim. 

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3 hours ago, 34student said:

Having said that, this seems to raise all of my issues all over again.

!

Moderator Note

Oh, we're not doing another six pages of this! 

Either you have enough to help you overcome this stumbling block and you just need to go back and reread the thread, or you're purposely misunderstanding the replies you've been given (either because you don't know enough to understand them, or you're trolling to waste the time of people who've studied this). In any case, this thread needs closing so bad!

 
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