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This question isn't specific to classical physics only or even to this particular subject. Actually the question is how can I learn more than what school is going to teach me. Since the schools teach really slowly and I even prefer to learn by my self for 2 reasons that, I can study "anytime" and for as long as I want to. No doubt schools are good, but it's the fact that they can't match the feel of self learning. So when I complete all the topics mentioned in NCERT books(They are the basic and compulsory books for high school), then what? How will I know what I have to learn next? Please guide me

 

Thanks

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59 minutes ago, A_curious_Homosapien said:

No doubt schools are good, but it's the fact that they can't match the feel of self learning.

This is about accumulated human knowledge, and learning it in the proper order to make YOUR best use of it. A successful curriculum is what schools offer students, and access to immediate human resources when there's something you don't understand. Think of school and what you learn there as your "toolbox", the basic information you need to make informed decisions. 

And self-learning is great too! Using other sources (Khan Academy leaps to mind, always) on top of what you're learning in school is a great way to challenge yourself and find areas of interest in your studies. We've had other threads about online study if you want to do a Search.

Discussing specifics about a subject with other interested folks is a great way to learn as well. We specialize in science discussion here, and I would encourage you to ask questions if there's anything you want more knowledge about. The members here are amazing in their diverse knowledge, and more than willing to help everyone involved in the conversations sharpen their reasoning tools.

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1 hour ago, A_curious_Homosapien said:

This question isn't specific to classical physics only or even to this particular subject. Actually the question is how can I learn more than what school is going to teach me. Since the schools teach really slowly and I even prefer to learn by my self for 2 reasons that, I can study "anytime" and for as long as I want to. No doubt schools are good, but it's the fact that they can't match the feel of self learning. So when I complete all the topics mentioned in NCERT books(They are the basic and compulsory books for high school), then what? How will I know what I have to learn next? Please guide me

 

Thanks

No it is not subject specific and my answer is not subject specific either.

Self study is wonderful and the higher the level you go the more you have to study that way rahter than a course structured by others.

However in my view the real difference between school and self study is that school (should) offers marked work or work guidance.

That is the opportunity to get soemthing wrong and then to discuss with your teacher how and why you got it wrong and then to correct it.

Or even just the simple yeah you did those well 10/10.

With self study most people cannot do this for themselves.

 

Coming to a forum such as this one is a great way to extend the base you are gaining from schoolwork by discussion with others here.

If you are lucky you can also have great discussions with your classmates.

It is often said that you can learn almost as much from your classmates as your teachers, I certainly did and was lucky that way.

 

So get the best you can out of school and extend it outside.

:)

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1 hour ago, A_curious_Homosapien said:

Friends, I think I didn't framed my question well enough(I was worried weather I explained it nicely or not). What I wanted to ask was that, after I complete the complete syllabus for 12th standard. Then what? How can I study university level topics(if that's what you call it).

 

A friend of mine once said "never go to the next lesson, until you've understood the last"; IOW don't rush it, you can only build on a solid foundation... 

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  • 1 month later...

The best way of studying smth is teaching. Teach anyone, spread your knowledge, you can become a private tutor. Then you will have completed knowledge and you will be ready to find a teacher for yourself, moreover according to your teaching experience you will know exactly what knowledge you've got. And then you will finally find out: "I know that I know nothing" 😀. I have just described the similar situation that I had. To cut a long story short, teach someone and find the teacher for yourself. Hope this piece of advice will do you good

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Quote

“Knowledge exists in two forms - lifeless, stored in books, and alive, in the consciousness of men. The second form of existence is after all the essential one; the first, indispensable as it may be, occupies only an inferior position.”


 Albert Einstein

Now I know @studiot is going to hit me hard. ;) 

What I mean is: Look out for teachers that are putting out their material online, a lot of them for free.

When the drive to learn synchs with the drive to teach, something wonderful happens, and knowledge is passed on. If the teacher does well, and the student does well, elements of criticism and analysis of how ideas are built and corrected/improved are also transferred in the process.

Khan Academy --that @Phi for All already mentioned--, Stanford, MIT courseware, and a long etc. You've got plenty of university material out there.

And my all-time favourite, 

PI (Perimeter Institute):

Psi Online

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3 hours ago, Kevin_Hall said:

The best way of studying smth is teaching. Teach anyone, spread your knowledge, you can become a private tutor. Then you will have completed knowledge and you will be ready to find a teacher for yourself, moreover according to your teaching experience you will know exactly what knowledge you've got. And then you will finally find out: "I know that I know nothing" 😀. I have just described the similar situation that I had. To cut a long story short, teach someone and find the teacher for yourself. Hope this piece of advice will do you good

I agree that teaching can motivate you to learn and can point out your knowledge deficiencies, it doesn’t inherently increase your knowledge. And you have to honestly assess whether you understand something - when a question is posed to you, can you answer it or are you BS-ing your way through it?  We’ve seen a lot of examples here of people (at least one claimed to have been a teacher) who were very confused about some basic concepts while insisting they understood.

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4 hours ago, joigus said:

Now I know @studiot is going to hit me hard. ;) 

What I mean is: Look out for teachers that are putting out their material online, a lot of them for free.

When the drive to learn synchs with the drive to teach, something wonderful happens, and knowledge is passed on. If the teacher does well, and the student does well, elements of criticism and analysis of how ideas are built and corrected/improved are also transferred in the process.

Khan Academy --that @Phi for All already mentioned--, Stanford, MIT courseware, and a long etc. You've got plenty of university material out there.

And my all-time favourite, 

PI (Perimeter Institute):

Psi Online

I don't seen anything I said that disagrees with your post, anymore than anything you have said disagrees with mine.

:)

In fact I think you have also made some excellent and valid points.

 

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2 hours ago, studiot said:

I don't seen anything I said that disagrees with your post, anymore than anything you have said disagrees with mine.

:)

In fact I think you have also made some excellent and valid points.

 

Lame joke on my part. I know how much you love books.

You actually mentioned the human factor. I couldn't agree more.

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1 hour ago, joigus said:

Lame joke on my part. I know how much you love books.

You actually mentioned the human factor. I couldn't agree more.

I don't think you were here when I described the teaching method of the best teacher I have ever had. (A level Maths)

It may also be worth mentioning the Oxbridge (where I never went) Tutor system and how they differ from teachers and also the fact that 'tutors' in other UK universities are a pale imitation of this.

Edited by studiot
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2 hours ago, studiot said:

I don't think you were here when I described the teaching method of the best teacher I have ever had. (A level Maths)

No, that must have been before I 1st came here. Teaching methods interest me a lot.

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On 12/3/2021 at 8:46 PM, joigus said:

I know how much you love books.

164879694_bookonline.jpg.1d0a9f5a076e667db4430d35617986d0.jpg

 

On 12/4/2021 at 12:29 AM, joigus said:

No, that must have been before I 1st came here. Teaching methods interest me a lot.

 

Our Math teacher worked on a weekly cycle.

He didn't need, use a textbook except to set homework.

I will start the cycle on a Friday.

On Friday he picked up the textbook and looked at the set questions for the section/chapter he had been teaching that week.
He picked out several questions saying do questions 3,5,6, and 9  or whatever.
The other subject teachers knew to avoid weekends for homework.

On Monday he would pick up the chalk, stand poised at the blackboard and say

OK Smith, question 3 start me off.
He would then write on the board whatever Smith said and the rest of the class were expected to comment if they disagreed.
Once Smith had a correct start he would switch to Jones for the next step and so on until the answer was written on the board.
In this way the whole class worked collectively through all the questions sometimes into Tuesday as well.

He said, "I don't mark homework, you mark your own. At this stage you are old enough to realise the only person you can cheat is yourselves."

On Tuesday/Wednesday he would walk up and down in front of the board expousing that week's theory and writing it on the board in his own way from memory.
We would copy it down (enough time was given unlike at university).
We could also stop him and ask for clarification or challenge a mistake at any point.
He would always explain the point and not move on until it was clear.

Thursday and Friday we would work collectively through example questions he dreamt up on the spot, in much the same way as the homework set on Friday.

His comment on the textbook,
"Now you are in the senior class you may be pleased to see that the (numerical) answers are in the back of the book. You may think that is great but will find it a introduces its own burden as you will not want to leave a question until you have got that answer."

 

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On 12/3/2021 at 9:53 PM, studiot said:

I don't think you were here when I described the teaching method of the best teacher I have ever had. (A level Maths)

It may also be worth mentioning the Oxbridge (where I never went) Tutor system and how they differ from teachers and also the fact that 'tutors' in other UK universities are a pale imitation of this.

Especially when it comes to the drink involved...................🙂  Well, only sometimes.

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14 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The best teacher's understand that drink is always involved... 

I remember one physical chemistry tutorial in which white rum (!) was broached at about 3pm and I staggered out of the door at 7, to get my gown for dinner, and really had to concentrate quite hard not to bump into either of the doorposts, thinking : "left a bit, right a bit, right a bit more, no right you fool, steady.........." etc. But that tutor was notorious. And it was the 70s: things will be more strait-laced now. He's still alive, amazingly, after all that liver abuse. 

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29 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If you don't like gay marriage; don't marry a gay person...  

Oh I'm not complaining about him. He was a good tutor and still remembers me when I show up for college functions. I remember once I was reading a book about electron spin resonance and querying something I didn't understand, which also baffled him, so he picked up the phone and just rang the author (a don at another college)  - and got the answer on the spot! I thought that was pretty cool.

 By the way, nothing gay about him: he even tried to get my then girlfriend into bed, at one point....(it was the 70s) 

Edited by exchemist
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3 hours ago, studiot said:

164879694_bookonline.jpg.1d0a9f5a076e667db4430d35617986d0.jpg

 

 

Our Math teacher worked on a weekly cycle.

He didn't need, use a textbook except to set homework.

I will start the cycle on a Friday.

On Friday he picked up the textbook and looked at the set questions for the section/chapter he had been teaching that week.
He picked out several questions saying do questions 3,5,6, and 9  or whatever.
The other subject teachers knew to avoid weekends for homework.

On Monday he would pick up the chalk, stand poised at the blackboard and say

OK Smith, question 3 start me off.
He would then write on the board whatever Smith said and the rest of the class were expected to comment if they disagreed.
Once Smith had a correct start he would switch to Jones for the next step and so on until the answer was written on the board.
In this way the whole class worked collectively through all the questions sometimes into Tuesday as well.

He said, "I don't mark homework, you mark your own. At this stage you are old enough to realise the only person you can cheat is yourselves."

On Tuesday/Wednesday he would walk up and down in front of the board expousing that week's theory and writing it on the board in his own way from memory.
We would copy it down (enough time was given unlike at university).
We could also stop him and ask for clarification or challenge a mistake at any point.
He would always explain the point and not move on until it was clear.

Thursday and Friday we would work collectively through example questions he dreamt up on the spot, in much the same way as the homework set on Friday.

His comment on the textbook,
"Now you are in the senior class you may be pleased to see that the (numerical) answers are in the back of the book. You may think that is great but will find it a introduces its own burden as you will not want to leave a question until you have got that answer."

 

Loved it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/6/2021 at 6:43 PM, studiot said:

164879694_bookonline.jpg.1d0a9f5a076e667db4430d35617986d0.jpg

 

 

Our Math teacher worked on a weekly cycle.

He didn't need, use a textbook except to set homework.

I will start the cycle on a Friday.

On Friday he picked up the textbook and looked at the set questions for the section/chapter he had been teaching that week.
He picked out several questions saying do questions 3,5,6, and 9  or whatever.
The other subject teachers knew to avoid weekends for homework.

On Monday he would pick up the chalk, stand poised at the blackboard and say

OK Smith, question 3 start me off.
He would then write on the board whatever Smith said and the rest of the class were expected to comment if they disagreed.
Once Smith had a correct start he would switch to Jones for the next step and so on until the answer was written on the board.
In this way the whole class worked collectively through all the questions sometimes into Tuesday as well.

He said, "I don't mark homework, you mark your own. At this stage you are old enough to realise the only person you can cheat is yourselves."

On Tuesday/Wednesday he would walk up and down in front of the board expousing that week's theory and writing it on the board in his own way from memory.
We would copy it down (enough time was given unlike at university).
We could also stop him and ask for clarification or challenge a mistake at any point.
He would always explain the point and not move on until it was clear.

Thursday and Friday we would work collectively through example questions he dreamt up on the spot, in much the same way as the homework set on Friday.

His comment on the textbook,
"Now you are in the senior class you may be pleased to see that the (numerical) answers are in the back of the book. You may think that is great but will find it a introduces its own burden as you will not want to leave a question until you have got that answer."

 

OMG, such a wonderful teacher.

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8 hours ago, studiot said:

I can't see why not.

I am talking mostly about NA-students here (late high school, early college) and there are a lot of issues going on.

But roughly speaking most students are:

- hyper-focused on exams and exams only

- focus more on grades than understanding

- prefer memorization above anything else. Last thing I heard, high schools start to give out exam sheets that show a selection of questions that come up in these exams. They are utterly confused (and angry) that we do not do that in college

- they do not work on problems. They google for answer and put the first thing they find in, regardless whether it is applicable or not. I.e. there is barely any learning involved for home assignments

- they do not read textbooks. This is more relevant for complex topics to get the context surrounding a problem. But they get frustrated if they cannot learn in simple: question-> answer formats

- interactive learning gives better outcomes, but student hate it (as seen from evaluations). In fact they get angry if they learned stuff that they actually did not need for the exam. Seriously..

- folks have almost stopped entirely asking for clarifications, typically the question will be something like "do I need to know this for the exam?"

- any instructions that leave any degree of freedom (e.g. "work on this problem" vs "do this exactly like this and then the next step is this") will be met with resistance. Even if you have got one or two who enjoy this, there is often kind of a peer-mood that percolates through class and casts these things in a negative light.

Not that at every students is like this, but implementing these types of lectures (or things that I did even 10 years ago) becomes an uphill struggle because you get so bloody many complaints.

From what I have heard, in HS it is even worse, as at some point the parents also join in complaining.

I think part of it is that folks are better at identifying what brings them short-term benefits and focus on that.

 

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22 hours ago, CharonY said:

I am talking mostly about NA-students here (late high school, early college) and there are a lot of issues going on.

But roughly speaking most students are:

- hyper-focused on exams and exams only

- focus more on grades than understanding

- prefer memorization above anything else. Last thing I heard, high schools start to give out exam sheets that show a selection of questions that come up in these exams. They are utterly confused (and angry) that we do not do that in college

- they do not work on problems. They google for answer and put the first thing they find in, regardless whether it is applicable or not. I.e. there is barely any learning involved for home assignments

- they do not read textbooks. This is more relevant for complex topics to get the context surrounding a problem. But they get frustrated if they cannot learn in simple: question-> answer formats

- interactive learning gives better outcomes, but student hate it (as seen from evaluations). In fact they get angry if they learned stuff that they actually did not need for the exam. Seriously..

- folks have almost stopped entirely asking for clarifications, typically the question will be something like "do I need to know this for the exam?"

- any instructions that leave any degree of freedom (e.g. "work on this problem" vs "do this exactly like this and then the next step is this") will be met with resistance. Even if you have got one or two who enjoy this, there is often kind of a peer-mood that percolates through class and casts these things in a negative light.

Not that at every students is like this, but implementing these types of lectures (or things that I did even 10 years ago) becomes an uphill struggle because you get so bloody many complaints.

From what I have heard, in HS it is even worse, as at some point the parents also join in complaining.

I think part of it is that folks are better at identifying what brings them short-term benefits and focus on that.

 

 

Thank you for your detailed response.

I think perhaps it is over pessimistic although I note the difference in students over history.

It is, however , hard to get historical data, especially for a non specialist historian.

Here is some I have managed to find

This is a table of the % of students going to higher (University) education in the UK at various dates.

1950.............. 3.4%

1970.............. 8.4%

1990..............19.3%

2000.............33.0%

As can be seen the numbers have increased tenfold over the second half of the 20th century.

So the makeup of the group in 1950 is widely different from that of 2000 with those would have been included in 2000 swamped 9 : 1 by those who would not have been there in 1950.

It is interesting to note that the maths teacher I was referring to had never had a pupil getting less than a 'B', out of pass grades A - E and an impressive record in the further Maths of the Oxford and Cambridge entrance exams.

 

 

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In recent times I have also seen massive grade inflation, anything below a B (as final degree for BSc or MSc) can be met with administrative issues, it is often easier to let it slide. I also noticed that labs have become less and less popular. They were my favourite part, as I always felt that I applied knowledge most in labs and accordingly learned more. But since you have to do something to earn a grade students consider them risky and they have fallen out of favour.

Initially that was a trend observed in pre-meds, as they are obsessed with grades. But rather sadly I see even biology majors trying to avoid laboratory courses (in order to protect their grades). Don't get me wrong, active learning results in better grades, but requires more work. But students in recent times have made it clear they don't like it (we can clearly see it in evaluations). Unfortunately admin sees students as clients and are more interested to attract and retain them, rather than train them.

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