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Jordan Peterson's ideas on politis


Hans de Vries
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7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

If James wants to be known as James and not Sally I'm good with that, I'll do my best to adhere

And that's really all that's being requested here yet, for reasons which IMO don't need saying, MANY people find even that too onerous a burden.

In my mind, it's the equivalent of refusing to stop calling someone the N-word or continuing to refer to people as retarded, and suggesting that people who request you do so are simply being too sensitive and ridiculous. They're not. They're on the receiving end of this and are being targeted by these words and subtle rejections every single day they exist... often for months, years, and decades at a time.

It's not your place to tell others that these words aren't hurtful to them when misused, and it's not your place to continue hurting them through continued use or out of laziness or sheer refusal to move beyond historical tradition. Language evolves.

Misuse of these words has fallen out of favor and their adjusted use now represents acceptable parlance in society for good reason. In much the same way you don't refer to a woman as sugar-tits, you no longer refer to a trans person who identifies as HE by calling them SHE... and thankfully those individuals who continue refusing to take the simple step of respecting pronouns of the trans community are ALSO falling out of favor culturally.

You can either get onboard or get out of the way... you can either be a partner in improving society or attempt to stand in its way as an obstacle... but society will continue changing whether one likes it or not. 

7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

however if I slip up from time to time don't whine and make a big deal out of it

Again here, the arrogance and lack of empathy is astonishing. Nobody is saying you can't or won't slip up... That's fine and WILL happen, but yet again here you dismiss acceptable, polite, and entirely valid requests to stop calling someone SALLY when they identify as JAMES with disparaging language like "whining" and suggesting it's no "big deal."

Well, sure... Maybe it's no big deal for YOU, a cis-gendered male who's never had to battle daily slights and discrimination just for being who you are... but you're not the only person living in this world, nor are you the sole arbiter of what is considered important to millions of humans.

This is about acceptance and authenticity. People are being shunned simply for being true to themselves. They are being targeted and ostracized, being brutalized and facing violence at unacceptable rates, and fighting daily battles against a culture who still too often treats them as subhuman. Maybe adjusting our own views and being just a bit more sensitive ourselves to their very real plight will help extinguish these disturbing trends. 

Edited by iNow
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1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

I was referring to your statement rather than the video - "we've all had our share", "some more than others". In other words life is not fair, but that's just the way it is I'm afraid. 

Peterson's position seems to be that, since life is unfair, people shouldn't be fair or expected to obey laws that force them to be fair. Me, I don't consider that a good political idea. I think that, once humans came up with the concept of fairness, they should try to apply it, to make up for some of nature's injustices. After all, we try to make up for nature's lapses in medicine and technology. 

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Fairness seems to be of less concern to the lifelong entitled.   Now you would think anyone with the mental acuity of a small soap dish might be able to grasp,  when lives of less privileged people are described for them,  that there is a Rawlsian case to be made for enforcing some degree of fairness.  

http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/veil-of-ignorance

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I don't think that guy is very popular with Dr. Peterson's audience.

But if our concern is with building sustainable societies, the law-makers need to don that veil, and the left-behind need it lifted.

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18 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed; but wouldn't you want a pain free lesson?

No not necessarily, I think you ned to experience some pain, like I said its about balance.  

17 hours ago, iNow said:

And that's really all that's being requested here yet, for reasons which IMO don't need saying, MANY people find even that too onerous a burden.

In my mind, it's the equivalent of refusing to stop calling someone the N-word or continuing to refer to people as retarded, and suggesting that people who request you do so are simply being too sensitive and ridiculous. They're not. They're on the receiving end of this and are being targeted by these words and subtle rejections every single day they exist... often for months, years, and decades at a time.

It's not your place to tell others that these words aren't hurtful to them when misused, and it's not your place to continue hurting them through continued use or out of laziness or sheer refusal to move beyond historical tradition. Language evolves.

Misuse of these words has fallen out of favor and their adjusted use now represents acceptable parlance in society for good reason. In much the same way you don't refer to a woman as sugar-tits, you no longer refer to a trans person who identifies as HE by calling them SHE... and thankfully those individuals who continue refusing to take the simple step of respecting pronouns of the trans community are ALSO falling out of favor culturally.

You can either get onboard or get out of the way... you can either be a partner in improving society or attempt to stand in its way as an obstacle... but society will continue changing whether one likes it or not. 

Again here, the arrogance and lack of empathy is astonishing. Nobody is saying you can't or won't slip up... That's fine and WILL happen, but yet again here you dismiss acceptable, polite, and entirely valid requests to stop calling someone SALLY when they identify as JAMES with disparaging language like "whining" and suggesting it's no "big deal."

Well, sure... Maybe it's no big deal for YOU, a cis-gendered male who's never had to battle daily slights and discrimination just for being who you are... but you're not the only person living in this world, nor are you the sole arbiter of what is considered important to millions of humans.

This is about acceptance and authenticity. People are being shunned simply for being true to themselves. They are being targeted and ostracized, being brutalized and facing violence at unacceptable rates, and fighting daily battles against a culture who still too often treats them as subhuman. Maybe adjusting our own views and being just a bit more sensitive ourselves to their very real plight will help extinguish these disturbing trends. 

I don't think we disagree with each other on wanting to improve society and acceptance, I just think we share different views on how to go about it. I think this is also the problem with JP in general. Like I have said previously I don't agree with everything JP states, however I don't think he as any particular agenda other than trying to make society better through education, I guess from his own perspective. Yes it may have evolved into "preaching" or at least the perception of such. But I think this is partly down to the media, his new found fame and other influences (maybe financial).

You are quite correct, my empathy runs limited, certainly for what in my opinion is over sensitivity. (yes opinions are like ass holes...) You have formed an opinion on my personality however, based on just a few posts on a thread subject that we share slightly different ideas on.  Yet you have no idea of my own personal experiences and why I have such a stance.

Though its not arrogance, this is a mis-interpretation, maybe I'm to blame for this, due to the style in which I post.     

Edited by Intoscience
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4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

No not necessarily, I think you ned to experience some pain, like I said its about balance. 

A pain free lesson isn't about insulating everyone from suffering, it's about preparing them to accept their situation,

A loving mother will slap the child if it tries to run into the road, and then immediately cover them with kiss'.

The balance is love, not tough love.

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Though its not arrogance, this is a mis-interpretation, maybe I'm to blame for this, due to the style in which I post. 

I don't think you're arrogant, I think you're misinformed and operating under that bias; I can't force you too understand the difference, that's the point.

JP is trying to force an issue, he doesn't want to understand...

4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Yet you have no idea of my own personal experiences and why I have such a stance.

I can guess, you had it worse than me?

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On 10/18/2021 at 12:48 AM, Intoscience said:

They have handled racism all their lives, faced adversity many times. They just don't waste time whining about it feeling sorry for themselves, they act in a productive way to attempt to educate or change people's views towards them. They are my good friends, decent honest hard working people.

OK, so as someone on the other side I can tell you that while we do all that, it is a burden on us and one that many of us feel unnecessary. Why should we be required to do the extra work just to earn the same level of respect that others get for free? I mean, of course it is a waste of time since every time you resolved an issue, another pops up. And if you address it too frequently, your are considered the one being disruptive.

So we keep our heads down, don't complain too much if folks keep misspelling our name just to remain in folks' good graces. That being said, as it turns out that this attitude can hurt you in positions with higher visibility. For example, I did not mind too much about misspelling my name or that folks for some reasons keep forgetting to put my PhD to my name (but interestingly remembered for everyone else). However it resulted in folks thinking that a fresh postdoc was the project lead, for example or that my name ended up not appearing in press releases in time.

I mean, especially in hindsight it is very clear why that happened, but in the past, who would dare to voice it? The way folks reacted when asking folks to do simple things like check spelling before sending things out (or give me a copy so that I could check) was almost asking them for a kidney or two. 

It was a bit refreshing that in countries USA or Canada folks actually apologized for misspelling your name, so I actually liked that blast of PC (which, again to me is just a basic level of mutual respect).

Sure, you can characterize that as whining, if you want, but to me it is not having yet to deal with another thing on my plate. There is now a growing body of literature showing that the cumulation of this small things are adding to measurable levels of stress on the molecular level, so it is not just performance, it is something with an actual health impact. 

Now going back to sexual minorities, that effect has been found to be rather profound and one good summary can be found here:

https://www.apa.org/pi/aids/resources/exchange/2012/04/minority-stress

 

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11 hours ago, Intoscience said:

You have formed an opinion on my personality however, based on just a few posts on a thread subject that we share slightly different ideas on.  Yet you have no idea of my own personal experiences and why I have such a stance.

Though its not arrogance, this is a mis-interpretation, maybe I'm to blame for this, due to the style in which I post.

I don't believe I have formed an opinion on your personality. Perhaps I have, but at least not consciously. I've been trying to focus on your actual words and what you're actually posting. In that case, the style with which you (and all of us) post is quite relevant... as is the style we use when reacting and responding to others who might happen to find our inaccurate choice of pronoun (even after repeated correction) offensive and irritating. 

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3 hours ago, CharonY said:

It was a bit refreshing that in countries USA or Canada folks actually apologized for misspelling your name, so I actually liked that blast of PC (which, again to me is just a basic level of mutual respect).

And getting even that much accomplished was a long, hard slog. In Canada, as in the US, immigrants routinely had their names altered or shortened on legal documents, because a customs officer found it too much effort to spell or pronounce those weird names "you people" all have. It seems "you people" are chronically ungrateful and far too touchy. 

I do believe the hardest thing for entrenched privilege to understand is that these cumulative slights and dismissals are felt as a burden of "group identity" - because those persons are identified as a group, rather than as individuals.  

"Who, me? All I did was put one little straw on a camel - whyn't he just man up? " 

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On 10/19/2021 at 1:08 AM, iNow said:

You can either get onboard or get out of the way... you can either be a partner in improving society or attempt to stand in its way as an obstacle... but society will continue changing whether one likes it or not. 

This is about acceptance and authenticity. People are being shunned simply for being true to themselves. They are being targeted and ostracized, being brutalized and facing violence at unacceptable rates, and fighting daily battles against a culture who still too often treats them as subhuman. Maybe adjusting our own views and being just a bit more sensitive ourselves to their very real plight will help extinguish these disturbing trends. 

Sure society will change, and let's all hope for the better in all those changes. Perhaps as probably in my case, we may have to wait until all us old farts die off. (I remember some quote along those lines with regards to science) I have an Irish mate who tells the best Irish jokes you can hope to hear. There are still plenty of blonde jokes doing the rounds. I still address all people I meet as mate (if male) or love (if female) and have been simarly addressed in return. Sometimes we need to laugh at ourselves, sometimes at others (we are familiar with). I see that sometimes as a rest from the troubled times we find ourselves in.

I have never, nor would I ever call a woman "sugar tits" or remark about how good her legs looked...and if I did, I would expect a strong deserved rebuke. Who sets those standards of mine? Dunno, they just seem polite, respectful and reasonable to me.

Yet nothing annoys me more then when I see people being shunned and brutalized, or ostracized within my group and even beyond. In fact I have on occasion gone out of my way to stop brutalization/s on more then one occassion. That was with a methodology that one or two here may class as with violent means, and probably all pretentiously admonish me for such violence, but yet ( as in a case with my Son I relayed in another thread) it worked, and to this day 40 years later, they ( my Son and his adversary) remain the best of friends.

What I'm trying to say, and from what I see, at least what one other is trying to say, is that sometimes PC can be taken too far, as per the earlier examples I gave. Let me though again reiterate that if any person, male or female, objected to me calling them "love" or "mate" I would immediately cease and move on, and in some cases, avoid that person altogether in the future. 

One of the leaders of the woman's movement many years ago is now saying something similar.....https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

The woman,s rights movement have justifiably achieved much, and in some areas and societies, can and will achieve much more, but there are also excesses and sometimes down right criminality with regards to "metoo" movement, when vindictivness is the driving force.

There are all sorts of people in society, some desirable qualities, some with undesirable qualities. It would be great to have a perfect santized society where only good prevails, but we all know that won't happen. I see myself as a supporter of the woman's movement and also PC in general......I want the Harvey Weinstein's  and the Jeffrey Epstein's of this world, locked up and eliminated from general society...I see the Jordan Peterson's of this world as simply courting conflict and emotion and being a provocateur, but those types all exist and the effects they have need to be justifiably and reasonably countered with justifiable movements such as the original woman's rights movement, and the reasonable PC movement. I will not use the word "brigade" anymore, as it does have underlying connotations. 

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1 hour ago, beecee said:

Sure society will change, and let's all hope for the better in all those changes. Perhaps as probably in my case, we may have to wait until all us old farts die off.

Lots of us old farts were heavily invested in making changes happen. Lots of us old farts absorbed a great many insults and much worse, simply for standing beside a person from one of the despised minorities - and for befriending, supporting or dating such a person...

  Thing is, society doesn't change. People change some aspect of society, one battle at a time.  

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56 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Lots of us old farts were heavily invested in making changes happen. Lots of us old farts absorbed a great many insults and much worse, simply for standing beside a person from one of the despised minorities - and for befriending, supporting or dating such a person...

  Thing is, society doesn't change. People change some aspect of society, one battle at a time.  

I've stood beside many persons belonging to a minority, and I was never despised or insulted for it personally. I've also as I noted in previous post, stood up to halfwits that have expressed their irrational feelings towards some of those in those "despised minorities" but If I elaborated on that methodology, you may pretentiously label me a violent person.

Oh yeah and of course, I have also been heavily invested in worthwhile changes for the community, among them being equal pay for equal work.   

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1 hour ago, beecee said:

you may pretentiously label me a violent person.

What makes you think I would consider your propensities relevant?

1 hour ago, beecee said:

I've stood beside many persons belonging to a minority, and I was never despised or insulted for it personally.

In what capacity did you stand beside them? At a formal protest, sit-in, parade, public hearing? Maybe Australia made inclusion of minorities easier than Canada and such protests were not required to bring about the necessary change. Maybe Australian society just changes through the process of evolution. If so, I wish all nations could take Australia's lead.

In any case, I believe having us old farts die off won't make very much difference to progress.

 

 

Edited by Peterkin
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5 hours ago, beecee said:

Who sets those standards of mine? Dunno, they just seem polite, respectful and reasonable to me.

We all do as a culture. Together. Right now, the push is for improved standards. The momentum is for additional inclusion and acceptance. The resistance is indeed shrinking and dying. We’re witnessing now their last thrashing gasps, but hopefully we can soon make this:

5 hours ago, beecee said:

Perhaps as probably in my case, we may have to wait until all us old farts die off.

… an unnecessary delay and needless obstacle. It’s time and we don’t need to wait. We can achieve the betterment now if we all stand up and fight for it even when we’re not personally affected. If we do, then this:

5 hours ago, beecee said:

What I'm trying to say, and from what I see, at least what one other is trying to say, is that sometimes PC can be taken too far

… becomes a pointless nonsequitur since we’re ALL attempting to make things better. The issue won’t be that we’ve gone too far, but that we haven’t yet gone far enough. Progress… 

We can all… each and every one of us right now and today… attempt to be MORE correct… politically or otherwise. We can do this with our own thoughts and we can lead by example while in parallel advocating for change when interacting with others.  

No death of aging flatulentarions required. 

Edited by iNow
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3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

What makes you think I would consider your propensities relevant?

Your comments in the past pretty well reveal that.

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

In what capacity did you stand beside them? At a formal protest, sit-in, parade, public hearing? Maybe Australia made inclusion of minorities easier than Canada and such protests were not required to bring about the necessary change. Maybe Australian society just changes through the process of evolution. If so, I wish all nations could take Australia's lead.

In any case, I believe having us old farts die off won't make very much difference to progress.

In all that and as a friends also, and I'm not sure why you see that as something peculiar to Australia. I'm speaking of indigenous friends as well as many "Imported Australains" as friends, of which of course, I myself am one.  Some may see the  terminology "imported Australians" as offensive, but I see it as a harmless humouress remark. As I have told you before, Australian society is no where near perfect, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a reasonably fair and equitable society mostly.

3 hours ago, iNow said:

We all do as a culture. Together. Right now, the push is for improved standards. The momentum is for additional inclusion and acceptance. The resistance is indeed shrinking and dying. We’re witnessing now their last thrashing gasps, but hopefully we can soon make this:

… an unnecessary delay and needless obstacle. It’s time and we don’t need to wait. We can achieve the betterment now if we all stand up and fight for it even when we’re not personally affected. If we do, then this:

… becomes a pointless nonsequitur since we’re ALL attempting to make things better. The issue won’t be that we’ve gone too far, but that we haven’t yet gone far enough. Progress… 

We can all… each and every one of us right now and today… attempt to be MORE correct… politically or otherwise. We can do this with our own thoughts and we can lead by example while in parallel advocating for change when interacting with others.  

Just a couple of comments on a mostly wise post, (1) I certainly am not resisting reasonable change, and I believe in saying that, that I also at the same time, respect another's feelings on how I address them, and will cease when objected to ( and how they address me in turn) and (2) and I disagree on your "non sequitur" comment...things sometimes can be taken too far.eg: without getting into all examples again, one obvious is certain songs, both yesteryear and today. Some of the pretentious criticism I have seen border on pretentious nonsense. Personally, I would be campaigning against some of this rap crap, and the inuendoes and hideous remarks, some often directed at Police, rather then Police cruelty. 

4 hours ago, iNow said:

No death of aging flatulentarions required. 

My flatulence considering my age is well controlled. 😉 

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19 hours ago, dimreepr said:

A pain free lesson isn't about insulating everyone from suffering, it's about preparing them to accept their situation,

A loving mother will slap the child if it tries to run into the road, and then immediately cover them with kiss'.

The balance is love, not tough love.

I don't think you're arrogant, I think you're misinformed and operating under that bias; I can't force you too understand the difference, that's the point.

JP is trying to force an issue, he doesn't want to understand...

I can guess, you had it worse than me?

I don't think we have much different views in reality. I think I probably air on the side of tough over soft and you the other way. But I think we both agree on the end goal, just slightly different paths to it.

I can't say if my life experiences are any worse or less than others, including your good self. I don't consider myself to have suffered really bad, I'm alive, I'm generally healthy, I have good friends and a loving family, I earn a decent enough living to get me by and a roof over my head. Regardless of my struggles and adversity through the years gone by, compared to most I see myself as very fortunate . In my mind this is just the way the cookie crumbles and I (hope) have learned from my past experiences good and bad, and appreciate my position in this life.   

14 hours ago, CharonY said:

OK, so as someone on the other side I can tell you that while we do all that, it is a burden on us and one that many of us feel unnecessary. Why should we be required to do the extra work just to earn the same level of respect that others get for free? I mean, of course it is a waste of time since every time you resolved an issue, another pops up. And if you address it too frequently, your are considered the one being disruptive.

So we keep our heads down, don't complain too much if folks keep misspelling our name just to remain in folks' good graces. That being said, as it turns out that this attitude can hurt you in positions with higher visibility. For example, I did not mind too much about misspelling my name or that folks for some reasons keep forgetting to put my PhD to my name (but interestingly remembered for everyone else). However it resulted in folks thinking that a fresh postdoc was the project lead, for example or that my name ended up not appearing in press releases in time.

I mean, especially in hindsight it is very clear why that happened, but in the past, who would dare to voice it? The way folks reacted when asking folks to do simple things like check spelling before sending things out (or give me a copy so that I could check) was almost asking them for a kidney or two. 

It was a bit refreshing that in countries USA or Canada folks actually apologized for misspelling your name, so I actually liked that blast of PC (which, again to me is just a basic level of mutual respect).

Sure, you can characterize that as whining, if you want, but to me it is not having yet to deal with another thing on my plate. There is now a growing body of literature showing that the cumulation of this small things are adding to measurable levels of stress on the molecular level, so it is not just performance, it is something with an actual health impact. 

Now going back to sexual minorities, that effect has been found to be rather profound and one good summary can be found here:

https://www.apa.org/pi/aids/resources/exchange/2012/04/minority-stress

 

Thank you for an informed and interesting post.

I have no comment to make, other than I enjoyed reading this and found your personal experiences interesting. 

12 hours ago, iNow said:

I don't believe I have formed an opinion on your personality. Perhaps I have, but at least not consciously. I've been trying to focus on your actual words and what you're actually posting. In that case, the style with which you (and all of us) post is quite relevant... as is the style we use when reacting and responding to others who might happen to find our inaccurate choice of pronoun (even after repeated correction) offensive and irritating. 

This is one of the things that does irritate me about internet forums. Its easy to form an opinion and then judge a person by how and what they post from which is often mis-interpreted, whether that be due to culture differences or the difficulty in expressing emotion through just words or writing style. I'm very often guilty of all this and then realise afterwards I have fallen into the very trap I try to avoid.  

However I do enjoy these types of discussions, I like to read and try to understand other people's points of view and experiences. Hopefully I can be educated from this and learn to write better. 

I don't intend to be either offensive or irritating during these debates.  

Edited by Intoscience
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4 hours ago, Intoscience said:

This is one of the things that does irritate me about internet forums. Its easy to form an opinion and then judge a person by how and what they post from which is often mis-interpreted, whether that be due to culture differences or the difficulty in expressing emotion through just words or writing style. I'm very often guilty of all this and then realise afterwards I have fallen into the very trap I try to avoid. 

He who is without sin, cast the first stone; it's not an internet thing, it's a people thing.

"My parent's slapped me and I turned out OK" is oft lamented and seldom understood; my father slapped me once, because I was seriously taking the piss (he sent me to bed for being naughty, but I knew he'd cool down and let me watch my favourite program, so I didn't even put on my PJ's), I understood the lesson. 

My mother never raised a hand to me, but when she thought I'd nicked a fiver from her purse, she called the police.

 

5 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I don't think we have much different views in reality. I think I probably air on the side of tough over soft and you the other way. But I think we both agree on the end goal, just slightly different paths to it.

There's many paths to nirvana, indifference isn't one of them...

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11 hours ago, iNow said:

… becomes a pointless nonsequitur since we’re ALL attempting to make things better.

That depends strongly on your definition of 'better'.

Without any counterarguments, I see that the race to the top of the 'holier than thou' heap has intensified; there is no need to consider other opinions, and viewpoints, in an echo chamber.

Trying to make life better for the oppressed and disadvantaged is a valid and noble cause; appeasing nutbars who want to be 'fashionable' and refer to themselves as 'thou' ( the point Koti was trying to make ), or simply delusional people with mental health issues ( we seem to have growing numbers ) is NOT.

Nor is it 'better'.

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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

He who is without sin, cast the first stone; it's not an internet thing, it's a people thing.

"My parent's slapped me and I turned out OK" is oft lamented and seldom understood; my father slapped me once, because I was seriously taking the piss (he sent me to bed for being naughty, but I knew he'd cool down and let me watch my favourite program, so I didn't even put on my PJ's), I understood the lesson. 

My mother never raised a hand to me, but when she thought I'd nicked a fiver from her purse, she called the police.

My father beat me with his belt strap because I'd swore at my mother. She nursed my sores and swellings better. I never swore at/or in front of either of my parents ever again, or since. At the time I thought my father was very strict and harsh, maybe (at least compared with modern times) he was. As I grew older and then had children myself I slowly realised and discovered that my father was actually a very caring and loving person. I never laid a finger on my own children as punishment, I did however allow them to get "burned" once and a while. 

I love and respect both my parents and learnt  a lot about life from both angles. 

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8 hours ago, beecee said:

In all that and as a friends also, and I'm not sure why you see that as something peculiar to Australia.

Because, in the US and Canada, these protest actions did not succeed without conflict and the participants did not all come through it unharmed. In fact, the process is still ongoing; people are still protesting and demanding fair treatment, and they're still getting hurt, even killed. If they so much as want the basic human respect of having their declared identity recognized in school or workplace, they're derided and excoriated by highly paid, highly visible media celebrities. If none of that happens in Australia, you are a very enlightened nation and I salute you. 

Anyway, I wasn't casting aspersions on your character; mere defending the old farts you said would have to die off before civil discourse can become the norm. That was the only statement with which I disagreed, and it's been more than adequately discussed by now.   

Edited by Peterkin
more, much more
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1 minute ago, MigL said:

That depends strongly on your definition of 'better'.

Without any counterarguments, I see that the race to the top of the 'holier than thou' heap has intensified; there is no need to consider other opinions, and viewpoints, in an echo chamber.

Trying to make life better for the oppressed and disadvantaged is a valid and noble cause; appeasing nutbars who want to be 'fashionable' and refer to themselves as 'thou' ( the point Koti was trying to make ), or simply delusional people with mental health issues ( we seem to have growing numbers ) is NOT.

Nor is it 'better'.

This was the focus of the points I was trying to convey earlier in the thread, though not as obvious and bluntly as you have expressed it. 

When I have listened to JP this attitude seems to be the vein in which he debates such ideas. However, the argument made against this is, who are we to judge who is delusional, nutbars etc... and what is ridiculous or petty. 

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