# Spacetime, Dark Energy, Dark Matter, Space and Matter and a way it could all work.

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I have been pondering this for a couple weeks, I want to propose the following and see what others thoughts are, I do not have a mathematical background to do any equations but this is what I think about when I ponder how this crazy universe of ours might actually work.

Here is my general thoughts!

When I Imagine a black hole crushing matter so dense that even light cannot escape, I think that black holes would also be responsible for the expansion of space and movement of time. If matter is made up of atoms and atoms are made up of mostly space with some particles, compressing matter to the density of a black hole would certainly leave no space between any of the particles and what happens to the space that was normally trapped between the matter that spacetime warps around?

What would be the left over product of matter compressed so densely that there isn't any space for any vibrations at all? Dark matter perhaps? If matter is mostly empty space but also warps spacetime then it would seem logical to me. If black holes convert matter to dark matter and in doing so release the space that is normally trapped between the particles of matter wouldn't the space itself be able to escape the black hole by mere fact that it doesn't interact with matter?

On a side note if matter is converted to dark matter and we imagine time stops inside a black hole maybe that's because once you release the space between particles it helps with expansion and it also pushes time forward in that sense. I don't have the mathematical education to put that idea into an equation but I wonder what they would look like.

Lastly I thought if the above were to be reality wouldn't matter be giving back it's space to spacetime fueling expansion of space and movement of time. Basic particles are restless because they have no mass, by mass we really mean how much space can be trapped between particles because it's the trapped space that moves us through spacetime, as spacetime expands the space between our particles gets pushed like a sail which is how matter can be seen moving apart faster then the speed of light. Dark energy is just the release of space from matter.

Quick recap, Matter has space trapped between it, space propels matter through spacetime, Compress matter so dense that there isn't any space between the particles and we get dark matter and expansion in space and movement in time maybe gravity has something to do with drag matter would produce on spacetime as it's being pushed through space and time by the very space held between the particles. Why black holes gravity is so strong that drag is maximum.

I try to always keep inside the concept that everything is linked to everything in one way or another anyways I just wanted to put my thoughts out there.

Edited by jayb
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54 minutes ago, jayb said:

I have been pondering this for a couple weeks, I want to propose the following and see what others thoughts are, I do not have a mathematical background to do any equations but this is what I think about when I ponder how this crazy universe of ours might actually work.

Here is my general thoughts!

When I Imagine a black hole crushing matter so dense that even light cannot escape, I think that black holes would also be responsible for the expansion of space and movement of time. If matter is made up of atoms and atoms are made up of mostly space with some particles, compressing matter to the density of a black hole would certainly leave no space between any of the particles and what happens to the space that was normally trapped between the matter that spacetime warps around?

"empty space" at the quantum level is a nebulous concept.

The most basic interpretation of black holes is a singularity, and then a whole bunch of space out until the event horizon, so there would in fact be a lot of empty space inside a black hole.

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What would be the left over product of matter compressed so densely that there isn't any space for any vibrations at all? Dark matter perhaps? If matter is mostly empty space but also warps spacetime then it would seem logical to me. If black holes convert matter to dark matter and in doing so release the space that is normally trapped between the particles of matter wouldn't the space itself be able to escape the black hole by mere fact that it doesn't interact with matter?

Dark matter being black holes is probably something that has been proposed and discarded. Something along the lines of: You would be able to detect it from the infall of matter into the BH. We don't see that.

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Quick recap, Matter has space trapped between it, space propels matter through spacetime,

You're treating space as a substance here, which it is not.

Any proper treatment of this topic requires math to explore, which you don't have. There is very little you can do without the math.

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In order for one to test the math they first must have a concept to test against. This might give the right eyes the spark and maybe it's just nonsense but none the less it would explain how matter can be propelled at faster then light speed. In order for space to warp around matter it would have to be a substance even if not by our normal logical understanding of substance.

I am currently in pursuit of my education but I am not to the point where I can test the math myself, I thought I would share my thoughts incase some mathematician out there may happen upon this and decide to crunch some numbers and see if there is any significance to it.

Edited by jayb
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47 minutes ago, jayb said:

I am currently in pursuit of my education but I am not to the point where I can test the math myself, I thought I would share my thoughts

Has your education reached the point where you know what is meant by the term 'critical mass'  ?

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1 hour ago, jayb said:

In order for one to test the math they first must have a concept to test against. This might give the right eyes the spark and maybe it's just nonsense but none the less it would explain how matter can be propelled at faster then light speed. In order for space to warp around matter it would have to be a substance even if not by our normal logical understanding of substance.

That's not really how it works.

You can have a rough idea and think it through to see if an idea runs afoul of established science, but for any kind of specific predictions that you would be comparing to experiment, you need to have a mathematical model in place.

Such as: any prediction that a massive object could travel at c, or any speed above that, which can be readily rejected as it runs afoul of established science. Unless you can poke a hole in the established science, which you can only do if you have a mathematical model that shows a loophole that you can exploit, and you've covered all of the parts of physics you break by having superluminal speeds.

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I would imagine something similar happening with fusion and fission in terms of breaking the bond and allow the space trapped to escape just on a larger scale with black holes. A more complete version of energy release.

Edited by jayb
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58 minutes ago, jayb said:

I would imagine something similar happening with fusion and fission in terms of breaking the bond and allow the space trapped to escape just on a larger scale with black holes. A more complete version of energy release.

You're still thinking of space as a physical thing. Can you bring me a cup of it? Spacetime is the geometry that allows us to model what we observe happening in the universe.

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5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Can you bring me a cup of it?

Thinking a bit of it, any cup will come with some measurable space in the moment of the observation (time). Or in other words: one part of space will be in the cup, it is mathematically expressible and physically measurable information. Why can’t we count information with such properties as a physical entity? Which law says space(time) is not a physical entity?

Can you give me a cup without space and time?

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1 hour ago, jayb said:

I would imagine something similar happening with fusion and fission in terms of breaking the bond and allow the space trapped to escape just on a larger scale with black holes. A more complete version of energy release.

We already have a perfectly cromulent model of how fission and fusion work (and it's because stronger bonds are formed; energy released by "breaking bonds" is a pop-sci misconception). What does your idea bring to the table? If it's based on that misconception you've started down the wrong path.

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7 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

Thinking a bit of it, any cup will come with some measurable space in the moment of the observation (time). Or in other words: one part of space will be in the cup, it is mathematically expressible and physically measurable information. Why can’t we count information with such properties as a physical entity? Which law says space(time) is not a physical entity?

SOME measurable space? When your cup dipped into space to grab some for me, did it leave a brief gap, or displace the space that was there so you could bring it to me? I see some actual matter in there, some hydrogen and helium, but are you sure you grabbed the same space?

The definition I use, the one that makes the models work, says that spacetime is the geometry we use to designate when and where things happen. The only effect you have on it is the way your mass makes it curve near you.

16 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

Can you give me a cup without space and time?

Not that the two are equivalent, but no, absolutely not. How would you find it?

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42 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

are you sure you grabbed the same space?

You asked for a cup of space which I can give you. It is some* space not the same space.

*a different empty (or filled) part of space.

Still, for sure, the cup will have space at any time and I can not give you one without them.

They are not equivalent.

Edited by Conscious Energy
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Even if we were to attribute some tangible quality to the notion of space-time, if space is removed by Back Holes when they compress matter, why is the expansion of space not evident near Black Holes ?
In fact, why is it only evident at large astronomical distances ( galactic cluster scales ) ?
Does 'space' move through space  to go cause expansion at a different location ?
And what could possibly compell it to move ?

I'm not sure I understand your definition of Dark Matter either, but what you state doesn't agree with accepted theory or observational evidence.

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1 hour ago, Conscious Energy said:

You asked for a cup of space which I can give you. It is some* space not the same space.

*a different empty (or filled) part of space.

Still, for sure, the cup will have space at any time and I can not give you one without them.

They are not equivalent.

What I didn't ask for was word games that don't help the OP's misconceptions.

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6 hours ago, jayb said:

I would imagine something similar happening with fusion and fission in terms of breaking the bond and allow the space trapped to escape just on a larger scale with black holes. A more complete version of energy release.

Since you have heard of fission can you not answer my polite and simple question ?

6 hours ago, studiot said:

Has your education reached the point where you know what is meant by the term 'critical mass'  ?

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When I think of nuclear fission and a particle splitting into 2 more or smaller nulcei I image a small amount of the space is lost during the split and we end up with smaller particles. If we take a single particle why does it have no resting mass? I mean space warps around a single particle none the less than it does a atom made up of particles and space right what is the difference? Why does a particle without space locked between them not get pushed through spacetime the same as one that does? Now if it did we wouldn't see galaxies moving away faster then light can travel.

Is the strong and weak force spacetime sails?

Edited by jayb
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The speed of some particles electron 2,200 kilometers 299,792,457.99999999999992 m/s proton 138 km/s up to 14000 km/s for neutrons now throw some of said particles into orbit around each other held together by a strong and weak force with some space in between and suddenly everyone of them molecules are moving through space faster then light.

I guess that is what I am trying to make sense of. We tend to think of spacetime fabric as a rubber band stretching what if its not and it's actually growing through processes we just don't fully understand right now.

If a photon proton nuetron and electron took off through space in a race the photon would win without question but somehow combing elementary particles changes the equation and now matter is zipping through space faster than the photon.

Edited by jayb
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17 minutes ago, jayb said:

The speed of some particles electron 2,200 kilometers 299,792,457.99999999999992 m/s proton 138 km/s up to 14000 km/s for neutrons now throw some of said particles into orbit around each other held together by a strong and weak force with some space in between and suddenly everyone of them molecules are moving through space faster then light.

Nothing is moving faster than c

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I am not properly wording what I meant, light is massless and restless by that we pretty much mean not actually moving through spacetime right? We turn on lights the light don't run into you you run into the light. We don't look out into space and see light from afar we see the light from afar in our spacetime now as it was when it was emitted. Everything we look out and see with our eyes was actually at one time in the same location of spacetime that we are currently. So yes everything matter moves faster then light because light doesn't truly move. Hope that clears up the misconception of light and speed because light truly has no speed. Relative to light it's us that is moving. Now if I am the one with the misconception can you please explain what I have confused. When we apply thrust and travel into space what we are doing is attempting to hit the breaks and slow down and stop our momentum through spacetime.

Edited by jayb
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A photon being a particle and a wave makes a lot more sense when you start to realize that it's how memory is stored by light. If it didn't store memory like it does as you pass through that particular spacetime you wouldn't see what has been there prior. So photons and waves are memory of light. As we pass through spacetime waves converge into photons in order to penetrate our eyes and deliver the memory stored by the wave itself.

This is why the wave always collapses when observed.

Our brain has the ability to read the memory of a photon wave function and that is exactly why we even have eye sight.

Edited by jayb
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34 minutes ago, jayb said:

A photon being a particle and a wave makes a lot more sense when you start to realize that it's how memory is stored by light. If it didn't store memory like it does as you pass through that particular spacetime you wouldn't see what has been there prior. So photons and waves are memory of light. As we pass through spacetime waves converge into photons in order to penetrate our eyes and deliver the memory stored by the wave itself.

Our brain has the ability to read the memory of a photon wave function and that is exactly why we even have eye sight.

All you are doing is spinning some fantasy that you are trying to get to logically hold together. It may be good fodder for a novel but it has nothing to do with science.

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4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

All you are doing is spinning some fantasy that you are trying to get to logically hold together. It may be good fodder for a novel but it has nothing to do with science.

All I am doing is attempting to grasp reality all you are doing is wasting my time.

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27 minutes ago, jayb said:

All I am doing is attempting to grasp reality all you are doing is wasting my time.

It sounds like you are making things up rather than trying to grasp known science.

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It sounds like you are speaking in circle jerk rather then enlightening me on what it is I have confused. I started the thread and in the title it says "could" and here you are pretending that I am saying this is how it is, I am putting my thoughts out there and if I am incorrect and you have nothing beneficial to add why even post?

Could spooky action at a distance be how photons communicate with one another? I mean when we look out into the stars they sure appear to be far away rather then right in my face. So does that mean a photon wave memory follows you from that point in spacetime throughout all of spacetime so that when someone passes through spacetime at point A where you were in the past and see where you are at point B in the present. They can actually see where you are presently rather then see you at the time you passed through.

So when we think we are looking out seeing the past we may truly be seeing the present reflected through a photon of the past.

Edited by jayb
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36 minutes ago, jayb said:

So when we think we are looking out seeing the past we may truly be seeing the present reflected through a photon of the past.

It is non-sensical to talk about a photon's past, present, or future from their frame of reference, as they have no valid frame.
Sometimes, knowing a little science, keeps you from embarking on 'flights of fancy' that quickly crash to the ground when presented to those who know science.
( I mean Swansont, not me )

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6 hours ago, jayb said:

Is the strong and weak force spacetime sails?

Since you are not just making things up can you please provide a link that explains "spacetime sails"? I'm unable to find anything or how they tie into the strong and weak force.

3 hours ago, jayb said:

So photons and waves are memory of light.

Can you please provide a citation for this? How many things can be stored in light memory?

3 hours ago, jayb said:

Our brain has the ability to read the memory of a photon wave function and that is exactly why we even have eye sight.

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