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What is Justice?


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16 minutes ago, mistermack said:

If a dog kills a little girl, we kill it. And don't care how it got to where it became a killer dog.

You should care how a dog was turned into a killer. Else you will turn more dogs into killers. But there is nothing to be gained by torturing it - unless you're an evil bastard yourself who takes pleasure in that sort of thing. The victim isn't compensated by the suffering of the attacker - but might feel safer if the attacker were no longer in the world.

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2 hours ago, swansont said:

The primary reason is that we aren’t 100% certain they are guilty? No other difference in how society treats people vs how we treat dogs?

Society is not one single unit. Even in your country, vicious child killers get a variety of treatments. Somes states keep them for an average of 20 years on death row, and then kill them. I think our killer dogs get off lightly, compared to that. Not that I'm ever in favour of the death penalty for humans. 

But personally, I value a friendly dog more than an evil human. And I'm not even a dog lover.

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1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Society is not one single unit.

Didn’t say it was. But generally a society converges on a set of laws. 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Even in your country, vicious child killers get a variety of treatments.

And is it the same as dogs? And for the same reasons?

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

Somes states keep them for an average of 20 years on death row, and then kill them. I think our killer dogs get off lightly, compared to that. Not that I'm ever in favour of the death penalty for humans. 

This wasn’t the issue.

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

But personally, I value a friendly dog more than an evil human. And I'm not even a dog lover.

Also not the issue.

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6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I thought you said we were above animal's and that's why we're uniquely evil or is it just more emotive language to bolster your ever diminishing base of assumption's.

It's a metaphor obviously and as you well know. Shame you keep on with your obtuseness. Nothing much else to offer?

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

If he's mentally ill/sick/disabled, it's not his fault he has no free will, no choice but to be him; much like that poor little girl. 

He is not sick or disabled. Although the poor fellow ( god bless his cotton picking little soul) does have liver cancer according to reports.  Whether or not he is/was mentally ill is secondary in my opinion, and of course the opinion of most reasonable folk.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How dare you assume to you know which one has suffered more, suffering is a purely subjective event, even in extreme case's. 

I dare most certainly. And find your comparisons between this disgusting animal and a little girl as really disturbing, and probably something you need to see someone about.

It also appears that you are so obligated, and/or disturbed in supporting this violent  poor excuse for a man, over the pain, suffering, and damage caused to the little girl,  I am leaving you to your own folly, and sorry I started once again to debate such an open and shut case with you.  

Thankfully justice was done in this case, and thankfully, the criminal will languish behind bars for the rest of his natural life.

5 hours ago, mistermack said:

You can't predict what a truly evil person will do, and you can't predict what a deluded person will do. For practical purposes, they are the same. It's true, I feel sorry for one, and not the other, so giving them a chushier life in a secure mental hospital is fair enough. Even though that leads to many lifers faking mental illness.

Yes, that's obviously a very salient point, and one I made earlier with regards to psychiatrists and psychologists in general, and which no one commented on.

 

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

You should care how a dog was turned into a killer. Else you will turn more dogs into killers. But there is nothing to be gained by torturing it - unless you're an evil bastard yourself who takes pleasure in that sort of thing. The victim isn't compensated by the suffering of the attacker - but might feel safer if the attacker were no longer in the world.

Of course! But irrespective we still will always put the animal down. As I believe I have told you previously, whenever we see cases of dogs attacking people, the first thing that should be looked at is the owner, and the possibility of charging the owner with wilful neglect. Some people should never be allowed to own a dog, or any animal at all. 

Our justice system should always be the vehicle that, (1) punishing and deterring the wrongdoer, (2) Protecting the victim and society, and (3) attempts at rehabilitation of the criminal.

The various means available for rehabilitation are many and most western societies use them...suspended sentences, parole, house arrest, ankle bracelets, and community services. Sometimes they work, other times they don't. A recent example of a drug trafficker that was on bail with an ankle bracelet that decided he would take advantage of the system and then proceeded to cut it off and absconded, but recently caught a couple of weeks later at the QLand/NSW border in a container on a truck....the story...https://7news.com.au/news/crime/minister-fury-over-nsw-drug-accused-escape-c-4344268

and the details of his capture.....https://www.9news.com.au/national/how-alleged-drug-smuggler-mostafa-baluch-was-caught-in-mercedes-benz/38a72158-7462-4422-8762-6c727682c96e

 

So, I suppose the question that should be asked is, (1) Should he be let out on bail again? (2) Should any more leniency be shown to him? 

Let's get this one quite clear. This bloke is probably a murderer. We do not know how many young people were directly affected by his crime/s. In other countries much stricter and much more severe  punishments are administered. Case in point: A few years ago, two Aussies were executed by firing squad for drug smuggling in Indonesia, despite much campaigning in Australia to have their death sentences commuted. Yes, and they both certainly had my sympathy, but by the same token, they knew the results of their crime if they got caught...https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-29/andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran-executed/6426654

Quite severe when compared to Australia's justice system and the obvious focus on rehabilitation and sympathy for the criminals in our country, and which many people are now questioning with the growing numbers of criminals taking advantage of the system.

 

Edited by beecee
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15 hours ago, beecee said:

It's a metaphor obviously and as you well know. Shame you keep on with your obtuseness.

So we are the same as animal's, which you say aren't evil. Now that's being obtuse FFR. 😉

15 hours ago, beecee said:

He is not sick or disabled.

Any evidence?

15 hours ago, beecee said:

Our justice system should always be the vehicle that, (1) punishing and deterring the wrongdoer, (2) Protecting the victim and society, and (3) attempts at rehabilitation of the criminal.

Since you've brought it up again, I'll ask again What's the point of(1) if (2) and (3) are adequately met?

Edited by dimreepr
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17 hours ago, beecee said:

Quite severe when compared to Australia's justice system and the obvious focus on rehabilitation and sympathy for the criminals in our country, and which many people are now questioning with the growing numbers of criminals taking advantage of the system.

Criminal's aren't taking advantage of the system, they're a result of the system; and if one of them is a sociopath, they're sick enough to be capable of anything; including the benefits of his illness, but only if we treat him with kindness, and understanding of who the bad people really are.

18 hours ago, beecee said:

Nothing much else to offer?

Indeed...

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Our justice system should always be the vehicle that, (1) punishing and deterring the wrongdoer, (2) Protecting the victim and society, and (3) attempts at rehabilitation of the criminal. The focus always needs to be on the vicitm and potential victims .  And as I previously mentioned, there has been much concern and anguish in Australia in recent times, with regards to the attempts of rehabilitation of criminals along with the leniency that has beed shown, and having it promptly thrown back into the face of society. In reality, The evil few are fu&%$# it up for those other wrong doers that may or maynot benefit from the efforts of rehabilitiation. 

And once again, I find comparisons between the main real ife case in question, with regards to this disgusting animal and a little girl that was beaten, raped and probably scarred for life, as really disturbing.

Edited by beecee
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17 hours ago, beecee said:

 The focus always needs to be on the vicitm and potential victims .

Indeed, that's why I'd want to be sociopath if I caught him in the act; sympathy is not a switch though, caring for one takes nothing away from the other.

It's perfectly possible to protect the victim from the perp, while protecting the perp from persecution.

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4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why is it so difficult, for you to understand, their both human...

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that one is a victim and the other an evil monster that must be locked away from society.eg: the case in point, Hitler, Idi Amin and many many more. Most, including the monster that raped the little girl have had their chance at redemption and rehabilitation. Why is it so difficult for you to admit that? Don't answer that, it is obvious and I have given the answer previously....sad and disturbing though it maybe.

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

It's perfectly possible to protect the victim from the perp, while protecting the perp from persecution.

Protecting the perpetrator from persecution is grossly wrong and again a  disturbing defining of a situation by yourself. We are, [the vast majority of western society] protecting the vicitm and society, and administering justice. It's that simple, and while not perfect, it is imperitive.  Our justice system should always be the vehicle that, (1) punishing and deterring the wrongdoer, (2) Protecting the victim and society, and (3) attempts at rehabilitation of the criminal. The focus always needs to be on the vicitm and potential victims. 

On 11/15/2021 at 6:30 AM, beecee said:

 The focus always needs to be on the vicitm and potential victims . 

 

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed,

That's one small step for mankind. 

Edited by beecee
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16 hours ago, beecee said:

This cold blooded crocodile tear phony needs to be locked up ASAP before he spills even more blood… that's justice!!!

Absolutely, that's the priority...

And when he's behind bars, the priority shift's too, understanding why he did what he did.

We do that be removing the emotive language from the conversation and consider ourselves from his perspective...

Only when that conversation is understood, is justice done...

Edited by dimreepr
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10 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Biologically maybe, that's where the "humanity" ends. 

No, that's where empathy ends and sympathy begins; I can be sympathetic towards a dog but I can never empathise with it... 

The cruel irony of justice is, we don't get a choice... 

An excuse, is not a reason...

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2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

Biologically maybe, that's where the "humanity" ends. 

Can you define the exact borders of "humanity"? This 4% of the population is too good to be human; that 12% is too emotional; this 1% is intellectually or artistically superhuman; that 27% is criminal.... Or, the lines could be drawn around other criteria: ethnicity, geography, political bias, or anything you want.

No. Humanness is biologically determined. It's not a matter of choosing up sides: that's where xenophobia and objectification begin and justice becomes a vacant idea. Humanity comes in a range of temperaments and traits; exists in a variety of conditions and environments. As a social species, we simple have to find ways of dealing with our diversity. 

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3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Can you define the exact borders of "humanity"? This 4% of the population is too good to be human; that 12% is too emotional; this 1% is intellectually or artistically superhuman; that 27% is criminal.... Or, the lines could be drawn around other criteria: ethnicity, geography, political bias, or anything you want.

No. Humanness is biologically determined. It's not a matter of choosing up sides: that's where xenophobia and objectification begin and justice becomes a vacant idea. Humanity comes in a range of temperaments and traits; exists in a variety of conditions and environments. As a social species, we simple have to find ways of dealing with our diversity. 

All well and good, and a heart warming exercise. Still it does nothing to change the incorridgibles that exist in society, nor the fact that the attempts at rehabilitation and being given second chances (you know, like the monster in my real life example) are sometimes thrown back into society's face. That's where justice has no choice but to lock them up and throw away the key...or the right wing politically motivated punk above. They both in different ways have without doubt, taken advantage of the system/s....or the "so called freedom" of the anti vax brigade, that are still screaming the loudest about their so called rights, with marches, protests, death threats etc, because society is excluding them ( for the good of society) from that very society, despite the money being thrown at attempts to re-educate them and their weird take on freedom of choice etc. They (the hard core of them) will not change and thankfully neither will the government. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCT_iS6uToYThrow as much psychology and psychiatry attempts at reasoning with them as you like. They ( in all the cases shown) will take advantage of the justice system.

 

Edited by beecee
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8 minutes ago, beecee said:

Still it does nothing to change the incorridgibles that exist in society,

That's right. Wherever in society they are, whatever their rank or station, whether their antisocial acts are on the scale of  isolated outbursts of violence, protracted calculated cruelty or genocide, once humans become incorrigible, they cannot be corrected - not even by pretending that 'they' are a different species from 'us'. 

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7 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

That's right. Wherever in society they are, whatever their rank or station, whether their antisocial acts are on the scale of  isolated outbursts of violence, protracted calculated cruelty or genocide, once humans become incorrigible, they cannot be corrected - not even by pretending that 'they' are a different species from 'us'. 

And of course (as you forgot to address) they will most certainly, do their darndest to take advantage of the system. I would most certainly ( in the main real life case of the rape of the little girl) grab all the parole board that granted this arsehole parole, and  put them through the wringer as to how with all those expert psychiatrists and psysiologists on that board, that they let this animal out on parole, without recognising what he was. It may have given them that warm fuzzy feel good feeling, but it certainly did not help the little girl, her parents, the good samaritan that went to her assistance and got stabbed for his efforts, the police that originally brought him before the courts, and society in general.

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15 minutes ago, beecee said:

And of course (as you forgot to address) they will most certainly, do their darndest to take advantage of the system.

I didn't forget; I just don't think it's any part of justice. Taking advantage of the system is how drug traffickers get rich enough to build gambling palaces in Los Vegas; how DJ Trump got away with massive tax fraud and became president. 

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3 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I didn't forget; I just don't think it's any part of justice. Taking advantage of the system is how drug traffickers get rich enough to build gambling palaces in Los Vegas; how DJ Trump got away with massive tax fraud and became president. 

Are you serious? A monster, let out on parole, (you know, an example of rehabilitation) that then almost immediatly rapes and severly assualts a little girl and stabs a good samaritan that goes to her rescue. So you conveniently say it isn't part of the justice system? I see your position as being totally obtuse and simply a means of defending the indefensible.

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8 minutes ago, beecee said:

So you conveniently say it isn't part of the justice system?

No, I didn't. I said taking advantage of the imperfect prevaling system, whether on the scale of personal crime or a world war, is not justice.

No part of justice = it is not an example of the concept or practice of justice.

Edited by Peterkin
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5 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

No, I didn't. I said taking advantage of the imperfect prevaling system, whether on the scale of personal crime or a world war, is not justice.

No part of justice = it is not an example of the concept or practice of justice.

???? I said.....

41 minutes ago, beecee said:

And of course (as you forgot to address) they will most certainly, do their darndest to take advantage of the system. I would most certainly ( in the main real life case of the rape of the little girl) grab all the parole board that granted this arsehole parole, and  put them through the wringer as to how with all those expert psychiatrists and psysiologists on that board, that they let this animal out on parole, without recognising what he was. It may have given them that warm fuzzy feel good feeling, but it certainly did not help the little girl, her parents, the good samaritan that went to her assistance and got stabbed for his efforts, the police that originally brought him before the courts, and society in general.

you replied.....

20 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I didn't forget; I just don't think it's any part of justice. Taking advantage of the system is how drug traffickers get rich enough to build gambling palaces in Los Vegas; how DJ Trump got away with massive tax fraud and became president. 

Yeah, I'll stick with obtuseness.

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5 minutes ago, beecee said:

Yeah, I'll stick with obtuseness.

You will also, quite evidently keep dredging up this one horrific crime on which you seem to be fixated, and I will continue to address the issue, as

 

8 minutes ago, beecee said:

they will most certainly, do their darndest to take advantage of the system.

rather than the case you keep quoting as if it were the only example.

If you wanted to discuss the theory and practice of parole as it relates to the dispensation of justice in general, I'm willing to do that. If you just want to keep citing this particular failure of the parole system, without addressing the principle,  purpose, board selection and statistical results of parole in various social contexts, go ahead; I have nothing to add to it.   

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