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COVID and masks


Alfred001

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I've heard so much conflicting information on this topic and it seems like there are studies to prove every position you want to take on it. The most popular view seems to be however that the standard surgical masks that people most frequently wear stop you from infecting others, but don't protect you, whereas there's some other type of mask that protects both you and other people, is this in fact what the science suggests?

What kind of protection do the cloth masks provide?

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Very little. You may as put a sock over your mouth. Ever see a surgeon going into surgery with a sock over their mouth? Better than nothing, but not great. 

Use N95 or KN95 and most importantly make sure it fits correctly. 

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The masks I use have three layers: an outside one of brushed cotton or silk to repel water, a soft middle layer to conform to my nose, cheekbones and chin, and an inside layer that's either closely woven fabric or a standard paper surgical mask.  (Unfortunately, the latter kind don't wash well, so I have to keep replacing the liner.)

What I see very often that gives me the willies is  a stiff mask that slips down off the wearer's nose every three minutes, and he shoves it back up after a few good whuffs into whatever air happens to be around.

Edited by Peterkin
absentmindedness
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3 hours ago, Alfred001 said:

What kind of protection do the cloth masks provide?

Pretty good, but not for the person wearing it. Its main benefit is for slowing the spread of COVID when an infected person wears it.

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5 hours ago, Alfred001 said:

I've heard so much conflicting information on this topic and it seems like there are studies to prove every position you want to take on it. The most popular view seems to be however that the standard surgical masks that people most frequently wear stop you from infecting others, but don't protect you, whereas there's some other type of mask that protects both you and other people, is this in fact what the science suggests?

What kind of protection do the cloth masks provide?

If one follows the actual data, it is actually not terribly conflicting. The issue is more of one nuance. Masks have a higher impact on the wearer not infecting others, but offers only limited protection in most cases. It is not nothing, but even cloth masks provide a little bit of barrier. As iNow mentioned, specific masks and respirators can provide more protection for the wearer, but requires proper fitting and correct use, which is not often feasible for day-to-day use for many folks.

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8 hours ago, Alfred001 said:

What kind of protection do the cloth masks provide?

When people ask me about masks and COVID-19, I am showing them videos captured in slow motion, thermal spectrum, comparison of how much different kinds of masks release aerosols around ill person:

 

Edited by Sensei
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OK, this is the flu virus, not covid but...
"This study focussed on the effectiveness of surgical masks against a range of airborne particles. Using separate tests to measure levels of inert particles and live aerosolised influenza virus, our findings show that surgical masks provide around a 6-fold reduction in exposure. Live viruses could be detected in the air behind all surgical masks tested. By contrast, properly fitted respirators could provide at least a 100-fold reduction".

from
https://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr619.pdf

 

The maths isn't really this simple but, if the R value is 3 and your mask reduces exposure by a factor of 6 it might get the R value down to 0.5- i.e. below 1- which would be good.

3 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Slow motion thermal spectrum

That's not a thermal image video.

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35 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

That's not a thermal image video.

Calm down. I was in the middle of edit, searching for videos to attach.. writing/replaying on mobile is PITA..

 

8 hours ago, Alfred001 said:

The most popular view seems to be however that the standard surgical masks that people most frequently wear stop you from infecting others, but don't protect you, whereas there's some other type of mask that protects both you and other people, is this in fact what the science suggests?

Viruses (in aerosols ejected by ill people) can infect you also through eyes..

https://www.google.com/search?q=virus+infection+through+eyes

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00040-9/fulltext

Edited by Sensei
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We have this debate at my place of work. For certain aspects of manufacturing, the process requires face fitting 3m respirator masks which would (so I believe) give quite significant protection against the virus. However as already been pointed out, the virus can be ingested through the eyes also, and live long enough on clothing or skin to get contracted at later times etc..

So its my understanding that basic face coverings most people are using is to reduce the distance the virus can travel on the moisture ejected from breathing, coughing or sneezing by slowing down the expelling speed. Thus, in general you wear the mask to reduce the chance of infection being distributed air borne from your expelled moisture by you to others. Rather than any sort of significant protection for yourself. 

If this is correct there is pretty much no point in wearing a basic face covering unless you are in close contact to others, that you may unknowingly infect, should you be carrying the virus (which is the responsible thing to do). 

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46 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Thus, in general you wear the mask to reduce the chance of infection being distributed air borne from your expelled moisture by you to others. Rather than any sort of significant protection for yourself. 

But requiring everyone in a venue to wear a mask protects everyone, including me.  By wearing it in public, I'm not just protecting myself and possibly others, I'm also encouraging the practice of safety in general. People are more likely to comply if they see others doing it.

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34 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

But requiring everyone in a venue to wear a mask protects everyone, including me.  By wearing it in public, I'm not just protecting myself and possibly others, I'm also encouraging the practice of safety in general. People are more likely to comply if they see others doing it.

I don't disagree, I think its important that we take responsibility and consider others at all times. I wear my mask not to protect myself but to protect others and set an example. I think its important that people know this, especially when I hear people say they have had their inoculations so feel they don't require protection, not realising that by wearing the masks they are protecting others!   

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Bonus point: my masks are funny. I wore baby shark one (it's army green) and my MASH tee-shirt to the vaccination place, which gave the nurses and volunteers a giggle. They need one, every so often, just as they need to see co-operation.

Edited by Peterkin
wore
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I think the Intoscience and Peterkin's points are great. Wearing masks can also be seen not as an individual measure but a broader public health effort. The aim is overall reduction of spread with requires broad scale collaboration.

If one only focuses on individual benefits the last year has shown that the overall outcome is actually worse. So normalizing wearing masks, even in situations where it is not strictly necessary, can encourage wearing in situation where it is beneficial.

A few studies have come out indicating that the delta variant might generate a viral load 1000x higher than the original strain (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.07.21260122v2, which also explains some data that I have seen in our samples) and together with increasing info on breakthrough infections, wearing masks seems to be still important to protect vulnerable folks (incl unvaccinated) but also to curb the reservoir and reduce other burdens of the disease (such as neurological symptoms, which might also manifest in vaccinated folks, though data is still a bit sparse).

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7 hours ago, Intoscience said:

I don't disagree, I think its important that we take responsibility and consider others at all times. I wear my mask not to protect myself but to protect others and set an example. I think its important that people know this, especially when I hear people say they have had their inoculations so feel they don't require protection, not realising that by wearing the masks they are protecting others!   

Bingo! While already being fully vaccinated [2 doses AstraZeneca] I wear my mask at all times when stepping outside my front door. With my Mrs so far only having one dose, and me being the nominated shopper, while she stays indoors, I have also undergone three tests so far...all thankfully negative. Sydney at this time is in lockdown with 170 cases reported yesterday, 60 of those out in the community, this delta varient is proving hard to get on top of. Australia though is a victim of its own success in controlling the virus last year, with only around 11%? of the population vaccinated. Thankfully that is improving as we speak/type. 

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  • 1 month later...

I question the "masks help protect others from the mask wearer" vs I think masks protect both myself from others and others from myself. In the hospital, we have historically worn masks (simple and cheap, but medical grade, same you can find at local stores) for droplet precaution rooms to protect the healthcare professional from the virus (usually flu, other viruses like RSV, etc).

 

My own personal anecdotal evidence is that myself and many others that have worn simple medical masks and cloth masks have not been sick since this started in March 2020. Disclaimer, when we work in COVID+ rooms, we are in strict isolation precautions (gown, gloves, N95, eye protection) but we don't always know which patient may be infected and sometimes other workers are infected without knowing. In those instances, we are wearing medical masks (not N95). 

 

Also noteworthy, prior to COVID-19, practitioners reported getting ill more often when working with the pediatric population. Those practitioners opting to wear a mask with all patients then suffered illness much less after mask wearing with all patient interactions. Just more anecdotal evidence.

 

Moving on to the current pandemic, I practice my own risk assessment and mitigation. My town does not require indoor masking at this point in time due to low infection rates. I personally wear a mask anytime indoors around people and never outdoors. I'm the only one in my gym mask wearing. Besides the virus, I don't want any illness that I can prevent. Flu, colds, strep throat, etc. I don't want any of it and this seems to be working at this point in time.

 

Anyways, just wanted to add a quality link for everyone's reading enjoyment. Take care all.

 

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118?fbclid=IwAR1ygoJj9LGfOuhH3M7XU9OLs8hU-9L5e0oJMtoK5Az2Oaj31w2weHuv3nE

 

 

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I think you are conflating mask use in a controlled manner (e.g. hospital, labs) where folks are trained and follow protocol for mas use. Unfortunately that is not the case with the broader population and it has been shown how masks of different materials have different levels of theoretical protection. That being said wearing any mask is better than not wearing. 

To look at the effectiveness of masks to prevent infected persons to infect others is based on simple maths. In a situation where an unmasked person is present the room can fill up with infectious particles, if even one  badly masked or unmasked person comes in (or takes their mask off) there is a high risk of infection.

If conversely the infected wears a mask (source control as described in the link you provided) the risk for the badly or unmasked person drops.

In a controlled situation you can ensure that everyone wears PPE properly. In a public space situation, you generally cannot control that and it really just takes a few minutes in any space to identify a few who do not wear masks properly (if at all, given lifting of masking mandates).

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6 hours ago, foxbody said:

My own personal anecdotal evidence is that myself and many others that have worn simple medical masks and cloth masks have not been sick since this started in March 2020. Disclaimer, when we work in COVID+ rooms, we are in strict isolation precautions (gown, gloves, N95, eye protection) but we don't always know which patient may be infected and sometimes other workers are infected without knowing. In those instances, we are wearing medical masks (not N95). 

As of March 20, 2020, 9% of all COVID-19 infections in Italy (Lombardy region mostly) involved healthcare workers (~ 2700 people)..

https://www.icn.ch/news/high-proportion-healthcare-workers-covid-19-italy-stark-warning-world-protecting-nurses-and

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