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Alien origin thought experiment.


Moontanman
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Possible origins of the "aliens" in UFOs or UAPs  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. Possible alien origins

    • Another planetary system
      4
    • Another plan of existence
      2
    • Another hidden (deep sea or underground would be possible examples) civilization.
      0
    • Time travelers from the far future
      2


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21 minutes ago, zapatos said:

someone interested in talking to us will likely attempt multiple channels.

Why any advanced civilisation would wanna communicate anything to a civilisation which can not even speak the same universal math they do.

Like someone would expect from Einstein to repeatedly explain on different channels the theory of Relativity to a streptococcus bacteria. 
 

Edited by Conscious Energy
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2 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

I fear that even with something like controlled fusion it doesn't make sense.  How close would a planet be that has a breathable atmosphere?  1000 ly?  5000 ly?  Even if you can travel at 25% the speed of light, it ain't going to happen.  

I think you are missing the point of the slow ark. Great speed is not necessary. It is not as if the people who depart Earth will arrive at the destination no matter how fast you go. It is the future generations who will arrive.

2 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Why any advanced civilisation would wanna communicate anything to a civilisation which can not even speak the same universal math they do.

 

Not everyone is completely lacking in curiosity or would consider finding new life to be beneath one's dignity.

I'm guessing you don't bother to interact with many people who have cognitive disabilities.

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On 6/21/2021 at 5:43 AM, Bufofrog said:

I don't think there is alien life involved with UAPs. 

Agreed in the majority of cases, but still a small percentage of sightings remain at this time, unexplained. 

On 6/21/2021 at 5:43 AM, Bufofrog said:

 I don't think interstellar space travel is feasible. 

It will certainly need some huge advances in our knowledge and capabilities as a species to be feasible. But maybe achievable if we can survive as a  species long enough.

On 6/21/2021 at 5:43 AM, Bufofrog said:

 I am curious to see if UAPs are anything more than glitches and misidentification, I don't know what it could be though.

Yes, most are just that...throw in also mass hysteria, hallucinations, weather phenomena, or light trickery [refraction/reflection/mirages etc. 

"Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence" as Carl Sagan said.

 

I do though certainly believe that in the course of time, Alien life of one form or another, will be validated/found. 

Edited by beecee
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3 hours ago, zapatos said:

I think you are missing the point of the slow ark. Great speed is not necessary. It is not as if the people who depart Earth will arrive at the destination no matter how fast you go. It is the future generations who will arrive.

No, I get that.  I just don't think we could survive in space for that long of a time.  Something is bound to go wrong with the ship and there is no escape.  

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42 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

No, I get that.  I just don't think we could survive in space for that long of a time.  Something is bound to go wrong with the ship and there is no escape.  

We are currently all on a ship traveling through space and eventually something is bound to go wrong. What we are talking about is developing an escape from our current ship and moving on. 

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Interesting article in Scientific American.  It relies on a somewhat conventional explanation of "alien probes", but is a provocative piece nonetheless.  

Maybe the Aliens Really Are Here,  By John Gertz on June 21, 2021

"But if so, it’s probably in the form of robotic probes—something both UFO enthusiasts and SETI scientists should be able to agree on"

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/maybe-the-aliens-really-are-here/

The interstellar travel problem could be solved by manipulating wormholes, which are theoretically consistent with the general theory of relativity.  

https://physics.aps.org/story/v2/st7

8 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Why any advanced civilisation would wanna communicate anything to a civilisation which can not even speak the same universal math they do.

I don't know if this was your point, but there is a similar argument stating that aliens would never want to visit Earth because we're so inferior to them, so why would they bother?  I don't think this argument has any merit whatsoever.  Any moderately intelligent species, let alone one that might be significantly more advanced than we are, is likely to be curious and want to explore its surroundings.  Curiosity and an interest in exploration are innate attributes of intelligence. 

In addition to innate curiosity, there are concrete material benefits of exploration.  Humans are spending significant resources to go to Mars, and there's barely a shrub of vegetation or unicellular organism to be found.  What energy would human society expend if we could efficiently and safely travel to thousands of exoplanets every year?  The scientific benefits would be enormous.  

Here are only a few reasons why an alien species might be interested in Earth:

  • it harbors incredible biodiversity and a vast array of organisms
  • to study its atmosphere & ecosystems
  • it's dominated by an often violent species that possesses nuclear weapons, and is beginning to venture further out into space
  • it's natural habitat is on the brink of collapse, thanks to the aforementioned violent species
  • it is resource rich, harboring an abundance of heavy metals and other valuable materials

And these are just assuming the ETs are benign and passive.  Perhaps their own planet has become inhabitable for whatever reason, and now they're looking for a new place to hang out.  

If humanity discovered an exoplanet as valuable as Earth that we could feasibly visit - we would be there regularly.  But suppose, like Earth, such an exoplanet was inhabited by an irrational and violent species that attempted to kill us whenever we entered the atmosphere.  In such a situation, (assuming we had no interest in annihilating this unpredictable indigenous species) covert incursions / remote observations would be the next logical alternative.  In other words:  wait until they grow up.   

Edited by Alex_Krycek
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9 hours ago, zapatos said:

Not everyone is completely lacking in curiosity or would consider finding new life to be beneath one's dignity.

I'm guessing you don't bother to interact with many people who have cognitive disabilities.

Than where is EveryOne?

Well I interact every day with people who has cognitive disabilities. I even develop a software (not just) for them, to help better preception of medically relevant data. I still do not go and speak about medicine with chickens, as I know they wont understand anything I would try to say.

Every intelligent entity will be able to estimate how much the counter part can perceive. An andvanced intelligence has no point to push their understandig to a species which can not comprehend the information they try to communicate. 

Edited by Conscious Energy
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4 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Than where is EveryOne?

The Universe is a huge mind boggling expanse. Even the discovery of the most basic of Alien life form/s, will prove to be awesome Earth shattering news.

As mentioned earlier, time and distance are the two forminable barriers inhibiting contact between Intelliegnt species.

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8 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

I still do not go and speak about medicine with chickens, as I know they wont understand anything I would try to say.

Can you say "Strawman"?

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9 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Than where is EveryOne?

Well I interact every day with people who has cognitive disabilities. I even develop a software (not just) for them, to help better preception of medically relevant data. I still do not go and speak about medicine with chickens, as I know they wont understand anything I would try to say.

Every intelligent entity will be able to estimate how much the counter part can perceive. An andvanced intelligence has no point to push their understandig to a species which can not comprehend the information they try to communicate. 

 

We, humans, try to talk to ants, yes we actually make giant ant colonies and try to communicate with them via pheromones. Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean someone wouldn't be interested. 

9 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Than where is EveryOne?

 

Fermi's paradox has many different potential answers, far too many to be adequately discussed here.  

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1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Can you say "Strawman"?

Can you elaborate maybe in another thread, not to develop a thread hijack?

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

We, humans, try to talk to ants, yes we actually make giant ant colonies and try to communicate with them via pheromones. Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean someone wouldn't be interested. 

I am sure that there are planty of scientiest finds an interest in ant-human communication and it is a very well studied and explored teritory of science. I do not find any material on the topic on google though so could you link the study describe this human-ant communication set-ups, its results and long term implications? Maybe in another thread not to make a thread hijack. 

6 hours ago, beecee said:

The Universe is a huge mind boggling expanse. Even the discovery of the most basic of Alien life form/s, will prove to be awesome Earth shattering news.

As mentioned earlier, time and distance are the two forminable barriers inhibiting contact between Intelliegnt species.

I agree. 

Still time and distance do not prohibit contact between Intelligent species. 

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11 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

Can you elaborate maybe in another thread, not to develop a thread hijack?

It's relevant to your argument in THIS thread.

Zapatos was pushing back against your argument that aliens would consider us beneath their notice by pointing out that intelligent beings find many things interesting, and mentioned work with cognitive disabilities. Instead of addressing that point, you chose to argue that even though you understand the situation through your work, you still wouldn't try to explain medicine to a chicken. That wasn't what zapatos was arguing AT ALL, and this tactic is known as the Strawman Fallacy. You couldn't address his real argument, so you made up a man of straw and knocked that down instead. 

It's actually a common device, and you may be using it unintentionally, but learning how to avoid logical fallacies is important to critical thinking. 

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1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

 

We, humans, try to talk to ants, yes we actually make giant ant colonies and try to communicate with them via pheromones. Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean someone wouldn't be interested. 

Fermi's paradox has many different potential answers, far too many to be adequately discussed here.  

True, but just one answer.

By Time, we will have the answers and I hope in 2 days at least we will get some real hints.

If any extraterestial life is in the solar system and yet they did not connect Us, it is because they do think we are not ready.

Their appearance could trigger the collaps of the type 0 civilization we are. (they might even have empirical data on such events).  

An intelligent lifeform wouldn´t wanna do that to an exposed underdeveloped civilisation, specially if it can exist anywhere else in the Universe. 

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59 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

If any extraterestial life is in the solar system and yet they did not connect Us, it is because they do think we are not ready.

 

Why couldn't it be because THEY are not ready? 

Claiming to know the mind of aliens is risky business.

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5 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Still time and distance do not prohibit contact between Intelligent species. 

And still we have no evidence yet of any life at all [even the most fundamental life] let alone any so called contact.

5 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

By Time, we will have the answers and I hope in 2 days at least we will get some real hints.

I doubt it. I suggest Carl Sagan's extraordinary evidence will still be out of reach.

5 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

If any extraterestial life is in the solar system and yet they did not connect Us, it is because they do think we are not ready.

That "MAY" hold for any intelligent  life well beyond the solar system, but we can reliabley conclude  that there is no intelligent  life forms within our solar system...perhaps maybe some fundamental microscopic life forms within the Oceans of the moon Europa, or the plumes from the moon Enceledus, or even Titan.

5 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Their appearance could trigger the collaps of the type 0 civilization we are. (they might even have empirical data on such events).  

I don't think so...perhaps among the fanatically religious type [like that nut in the movie "Contact"] but while certainly being awesome news and revelations, I see such contact as more beneficial to the human race as a whole and then gradual acceptance to the fact that we are not alone....

Edited by beecee
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Interesting article:

Scientists identify 29 planets where aliens could observe Earth

"Astronomers estimate 29 habitable planets are positioned to see Earth transit and intercept human broadcasts"

The scientists identified 1,715 star systems where alien observers could have discovered Earth in the past 5,000 years by watching it ‘transit’ across the face of the sun. 

Full article:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jun/23/scientists-identify-29-planets-where-aliens-could-observe-earth

9 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Their appearance could trigger the collaps of the type 0 civilization we are. (they might even have empirical data on such events).  

An intelligent lifeform wouldn´t wanna do that to an exposed underdeveloped civilisation, specially if it can exist anywhere else in the Universe. 

I find this an interesting argument.  This concept was explored in the movie "Arrival".  Because human beings are still essentially territorial apes, and our nation states function as such, the intrusion of a superior extraterrestrial entity into our social system could wreak havoc. 

There's also the issue of the human social order in terms of the ruling authority.  Right now, every human society is governed by other human beings - no real surprise.  Why?  Because we have established social structures to confer power on those we deem acceptable (or in some cases other human beings just take power).  But overall human beings govern other human beings.

What happens when a significantly more advanced species (or A.I) makes itself known?  If that happened, all governments and ruling systems would be simultaneously usurped.  Human laws wouldn't matter anymore; only the laws set down by this objectively superior species would be heeded, potentially causing chaos.  

Edited by Alex_Krycek
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6 hours ago, beecee said:

we can reliabley conclude  that there is no intelligent  life forms within our solar system

The UAP incidents indicate it differently, thats why we pounder the idea 

10 hours ago, zapatos said:

Why couldn't it be because THEY are not ready?

Try to understand my analogies instead of recognizing them as strawman.  

10 hours ago, zapatos said:

Claiming to know the mind of aliens is risky business.

I do not claim that I know the mind of aliens.

I am able to imagine the advance of an extraterestrial civilisations, which matured billions of years in technological singularity, compared to Us. 

That comparison, after knowing that the first cyano bacterias appeared on earth ca 2 billion years ago came up as the analogies you recognized as strawman. 

Edited by Conscious Energy
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12 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Zapatos was pushing back against your argument that aliens would consider us beneath their notice by pointing out that intelligent beings find many things interesting

This I understood, thats why I created the analogies, why it would be difficult to communicate with a significatly more intelligent and advanced extraterestial entity, even the interest is there from both party.

 

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52 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

Try to understand my analogies instead of recognizing them as strawman.  

Hate to break it to you, but...

"If any extraterestial life is in the solar system and yet they did not connect Us, it is because they do think we are not ready."

...is not an 'analogy'. It is an assertion that you cannot support.

55 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

I do not claim that I know the mind of aliens.

Then quit telling us what they are thinking, which is what you did when you said "...they do think we are not ready."

57 minutes ago, Conscious Energy said:

Try to understand my analogies instead of recognizing them as strawman.  

I do understand your analogies. That is why I was able to call out your use of a straw man.

You have to try harder if you want to succeed here. Digging in your heels when it is obvious to all that you cannot support your claims makes you look childish.

1 minute ago, Conscious Energy said:

This I understood, thats why I created the analogies, why it would be difficult to communicate with a significatly more intelligent and advanced extraterestial entity, even the interest is there from both party.

 

Bullshit. Einstein could communicate with children, he just didn't try to teach them Relativity.

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52 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Hate to break it to you, but...

"If any extraterestial life is in the solar system and yet they did not connect Us, it is because they do think we are not ready."

...is not an 'analogy'. It is an assertion that you cannot support.

It tried to be an assumption. I obviously can not assert such things since there is no evidence, yet. Maybe after the 25th of jun.

The analogies (Extraterestrial advanced intelligence vs Humanity, Einsten vs bacteria, Me vs chickens) 

Edited by Conscious Energy
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14 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Can you elaborate maybe in another thread, not to develop a thread hijack?

I am sure that there are planty of scientiest finds an interest in ant-human communication and it is a very well studied and explored teritory of science. I do not find any material on the topic on google though so could you link the study describe this human-ant communication set-ups, its results and long term implications? Maybe in another thread not to make a thread hijack. 

I agree. 

Still time and distance do not prohibit contact between Intelligent species. 

I googled it and found several relevant studies but not the one I was referring to, too many to sift through but this one is similar. https://www.jstor.org/stable/43599398

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2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I googled it and found several relevant studies but not the one I was referring to, too many to sift through but this one is similar. https://www.jstor.org/stable/43599398

Thank you Moon but this article is about how the communication of the ants is pheromone concentration dependent which is a common known knowledge.
 

There is no information in this article, which would address the communication between humans and ants based on pheromons

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3 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Thank you Moon but this article is about how the communication of the ants is pheromone concentration dependent which is a common known knowledge.
 

There is no information in this article, which would address the communication between humans and ants based on pheromons

What are you expecting? discussion of quantum physics? Pheromones' were used to influence the ants behaviors. I can't find the specific article so I'll withdraw the claim, I apologise. 

 

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22 hours ago, Conscious Energy said:

Still time and distance do not prohibit contact between Intelligent species. 

It can, however, prohibit conversation.

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