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Alien origin thought experiment.


Moontanman
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Possible origins of the "aliens" in UFOs or UAPs  

14 members have voted

  1. 1. Possible alien origins

    • Another planetary system
      8
    • Another plan of existence
      2
    • Another hidden (deep sea or underground would be possible examples) civilization.
      1
    • Time travelers from the far future
      3


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As a long term studier of octopus I can assure you they are sapient, but they seem to have hit an revolutionary wall with the whole mate and die thing. Keeping them from mating helps but not much, if you have never kept octopus in captivity and interacted with them on a daily basis it's difficult for me to explain why i take this stance. They have emotions, and even a sense of humor, if not for their short life spans and the high gravity of earth we would be their slaves. 

I would also like to comment on the idea of aliens being above us as we are ants... talk about speculation!!! In my personal opinion the idea of super beings is bullshit, improbable speculation at least, AI might reach such levels but I have my doubts about that was well. 

 

BTW we study ants, in very elaborate ways, even if super beings existed there is reason to think that some of them would want to study the rectums' of rednecks... 

Wouldn't it be a hoot if traveling to other plans of existence turns out to be far easier than star travel? 

Edited by Moontanman
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4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

As a long term studier of octopus I can assure you they are sapient, but they seem to have hit an revolutionary wall with the whole mate and die thing. Keeping them from mating helps but not much, if you have never kept octopus in captivity and interacted with them on a daily basis it's difficult for me to explain why i take this stance. They have emotions, and even a sense of humor, if not for their short life spans and the high gravity of earth we would be their slaves. 

While I have never kept octopuses in captivity, those facts, along with others mentioned, make the possibility of them ever obtaining space faring techology near zero. And I certainly never have doubted their intelligence and emotions, just as I don't doubt those qualities in other animals such as Elephants.

4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I would also like to comment on the idea of aliens being above us as we are ants... talk about speculation!!! In my personal opinion the idea of super beings is bullshit, improbable speculation at least, AI might reach such levels but I have my doubts about that was well. 

I never said that. I said that obviously any Aliens reaching Earth, would be in advance of us, but certainly not to the extent of us being ants. Our cities, bridges, cars, aircraft, would make it obvious to any Aliens, that the comparison of us being like ants to them is invalid.

13 hours ago, beecee said:

They would also more then likely have studied us for a period of time, and in that study, realize that while not as advanced as they are, we certainly are not anything like the comparisons we often hear, eg: Ants on an anthill/ Aliens...

 

4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

. Wouldn't it be a hoot if traveling to other plans of existence turns out to be far easier than star travel? 

But what planes of existance are we talking about?...Parallel or other universes? Wouldn't they all be self contained? And if we speculate collisions between such universes/planes, wouldn't there be some evidence of it?

I don't say humans are "smarter" then animals, but we are evolutionary different, in such ways as to be the dominant/apex species, that will one day probably leave his home planet to establish colonies on other worlds....

Edited by beecee
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2 hours ago, beecee said:

While I have never kept octopuses in captivity, those facts, along with others mentioned, make the possibility of them ever obtaining space faring techology near zero. And I certainly never have doubted their intelligence and emotions, just as I don't doubt those qualities in other animals such as Elephants.

I only mentioned octopuses as an example of an intelligent alien species, that communicates differently to us and perceives differently to us, to demonstrate the difficulties of first contact.

I very much doubt that Moon has had a meaningful conversation with them, even after all that study.

I could have mentioned crow's, do you speak Crow, or are there any facts out there that says it's impossible for a crow to fly to the star's?

Besides, dolphin's used to run around on land who knew they'd grow fin's...  

2 hours ago, beecee said:

I don't say humans are "smarter" then animals, but we are evolutionary different, in such ways as to be the dominant/apex species, that will one day probably leave his home planet to establish colonies on other worlds....

Perhaps if we were a little more humble, we'd learn how to live on this world, instead of dreaming of a better one; colonialism die's hard in the west...

Edited by dimreepr
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I wasn't replying directly to you two but to the whole thread, it is correct I never had a intelligible conversation with an octopus but they do react to my presence and I was able to judge their emotional state as well as interact with them and when they wanted attention they would lift the glass cover and squirt water at me as I  passed by. Once one of them actually squirted water on me while I was being intimate with my wife,, his aim was impeccable.

The idea that crows, and other intelligent animals,  don't fly star ships is missing the point, a couple million years of evolution and octopus might be colonizing Mars due to the low gravity. It took the human linage 6 or 7 million years to get to the moon. 

How much interaction with crows have you had? I suggest you do a little research about crows, even wild crows do some amazing things with tools and a complex communication system even bonding with humans who are kind to them and ganging up on humans who are mean to them, remembering the specific humans even years later. 

Beecee I missed your post on the ants idea, I apologize.  

Other planes of existence is not the same as the multiverse and has even less evidence but UFO abductees and even some researchers, and i mean real scientists, have frustratingly said it's like they pass in and out of existence as they go some place "else" meaning another plane of existence but I was just making a sarcastic joke when I said it.  

 

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1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

I wasn't replying directly to you two but to the whole thread, it is correct I never had a intelligible conversation with an octopus but they do react to my presence and I was able to judge their emotional state as well as interact with them and when they wanted attention they would lift the glass cover and squirt water at me as I  passed by. Once one of them actually squirted water on me while I was being intimate with my wife,, his aim was impeccable.

The idea that crows, and other intelligent animals,  don't fly star ships is missing the point, a couple million years of evolution and octopus might be colonizing Mars due to the low gravity. It took the human linage 6 or 7 million years to get to the moon. 

How much interaction with crows have you had? I suggest you do a little research about crows, even wild crows do some amazing things with tools and a complex communication system even bonding with humans who are kind to them and ganging up on humans who are mean to them, remembering the specific humans even years later. 

Look, I agree totally that we do under-estimate the intelliegence of animals. I have had dogs all  my life, and after their initial training, they are treated as my equal...particularly the two 55kg plus Rottweilers I had.😉 But I see it as drawing a very long bow to suggest octopuses will ever become space travellers...or colonising Mars, partly because of the reasons you nominated, that  they seem to have hit an revolutionary wall with the whole mate and die thing....unless of course they are already present in some as yet to be discovered underground Ocean/water source on Mars...or Europa!

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Beecee I missed your post on the ants idea, I apologize.  

No probs, I have always reasoned that way, and see the often used comparison of Aliens and us, as analogous to us and ants, as dramatic overkill...sure they would be advanced, but that same advancement would enable them to recognise our own intellgence, (albeit limited as compared to theirs) but advanced enough to accomplish what we already have. That same level of intelligence on both sides would also see reasonable communication between them and us, (probably helped via mathematics and geometry) as not too great a problem.

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Other planes of existence is not the same as the multiverse and has even less evidence but UFO abductees and even some researchers, and i mean real scientists, have frustratingly said it's like they pass in and out of existence as they go some place "else" meaning another plane of existence but I was just making a sarcastic joke when I said it.  

My apologies this time...the joke went way over my head. I probably have expressed this to you before, but my greatest wish in life is for the extraordinary evidence needed to confirm ETL, be discovered before I kick the bucket. That and putting boots on Mars, and I can then die a happy little vegemite!😁

While that discovery of life elsewhere (in the first instant) will probably be the most simplest form/s of life, any confirmation of an advanced species, will obviously be much further afield. Our two great barriers prohibiting contact between two species of advanced life, is of course time and distance. But wouldn't it be great if in another few hundred years or so, some distant species intercepts one of the Voyagers, interprets the maths and geometry and replies back!!

I also, (as I expressed earlier and supplied a link) see the humanoid form, roughly speaking, as beneficial for advanced intelligence and space travel, and that space faring aliens certainly would not be octopuses!...or tomato plants.

In fact I see it as far more likely that we could be exchanging banter with an Alien species a few hundred light years distant, rather than actually them crossing the enormous distances and shaking hands with us.

 

ps: Good to see you back!

Edited by beecee
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8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I only mentioned octopuses as an example of an intelligent alien species, that communicates differently to us and perceives differently to us, to demonstrate the difficulties of first contact.

Actually I was the first to mention octopuses with regards to comparison why we are evolutionary benefited to achieve space travel, while octopuses obviously are not.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I very much doubt that Moon has had a meaningful conversation with them, even after all that study.

I have had meaningful discussions with my dogs over the years, but like the octopuses, they will never achieve space travel.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I could have mentioned crow's, do you speak Crow, or are there any facts out there that says it's impossible for a crow to fly to the star's?

I don't speak crow either, nor their descendants, dinosaurous, but once again, like octopuses they are evolutionary confined to the extent that they will never become star travelling birds.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Besides, dolphin's used to run around on land who knew they'd grow fin's... 

Yep, so? There evolutionary traits and pathway, prevents them also from becoming space faring species.

8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Perhaps if we were a little more humble, we'd learn how to live on this world, instead of dreaming of a better one; colonialism die's hard in the west...

I'm humble enough thank you, and I certainly believe more than simple rhetoric is the asnwer to a better world.

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4 hours ago, beecee said:

Look, I agree totally that we do under-estimate the intelliegence of animals. I have had dogs all  my life, and after their initial training, they are treated as my equal...particularly the two 55kg plus Rottweilers I had.😉 But I see it as drawing a very long bow to suggest octopuses will ever become space travellers...or colonising Mars, partly because of the reasons you nominated, that  they seem to have hit an revolutionary wall with the whole mate and die thing....unless of course they are already present in some as yet to be discovered underground Ocean/water source on Mars...or Europa!

No probs, I have always reasoned that way, and see the often used comparison of Aliens and us, as analogous to us and ants, as dramatic overkill...sure they would be advanced, but that same advancement would enable them to recognise our own intellgence, (albeit limited as compared to theirs) but advanced enough to accomplish what we already have. That same level of intelligence on both sides would also see reasonable communication between them and us, (probably helped via mathematics and geometry) as not too great a problem.

My apologies this time...the joke went way over my head. I probably have expressed this to you before, but my greatest wish in life is for the extraordinary evidence needed to confirm ETL, be discovered before I kick the bucket. That and putting boots on Mars, and I can then die a happy little vegemite!😁

While that discovery of life elsewhere (in the first instant) will probably be the most simplest form/s of life, any confirmation of an advanced species, will obviously be much further afield. Our two great barriers prohibiting contact between two species of advanced life, is of course time and distance. But wouldn't it be great if in another few hundred years or so, some distant species intercepts one of the Voyagers, interprets the maths and geometry and replies back!!

I also, (as I expressed earlier and supplied a link) see the humanoid form, roughly speaking, as beneficial for advanced intelligence and space travel, and that space faring aliens certainly would not be octopuses!...or tomato plants.

In fact I see it as far more likely that we could be exchanging banter with an Alien species a few hundred light years distant, rather than actually them crossing the enormous distances and shaking hands with us.

 

ps: Good to see you back!

I wouldn't cross out crows or octopus out of hand, crows are very good at solving problems and using tools, even altering natural objects to improve their use as tools

Octopus also use tools and some populations actually live in groups and their ability to leave the water seems to mirror the first fishes evolutionary trip to land. Of course we would have to get out of the way. I forgot to mention that off the coast of central America an octopus species was found that lived through at least two or three mattings but the species has not been seen for decades and is presumed extinct. Over fishing may have played a part. If I remember correctly they had fewer young than other octopuses. I ran across this in a book when i was a teenager so i have no source for it so take it with a grain of salt. 

 

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51 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I wouldn't cross out crows or octopus out of hand, crows are very good at solving problems and using tools, even altering natural objects to improve their use as tools

Octopus also use tools and some populations actually live in groups and their ability to leave the water seems to mirror the first fishes evolutionary trip to land. Of course we would have to get out of the way.

And Chimps, Magpies, and Orca's just off the top of my head. But building, operating, navigating as space travellers? That's what I mean by dramatic overkill.

Funny my favourite animals, other than my dogs, are Elephants. I watched a doco entitled "Love and Bananas: An Elephant Story" Literally had me in tears. Another good doco on Orcas is entitled "Blackfish" 

The Elephant doco  is very much also about a Thai woman named  Lek Chailert, pictured here......10 ethical places you need to go to interact with elephants

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3 hours ago, beecee said:

And Chimps, Magpies, and Orca's just off the top of my head. But building, operating, navigating as space travellers? That's what I mean by dramatic overkill.

Funny my favourite animals, other than my dogs, are Elephants. I watched a doco entitled "Love and Bananas: An Elephant Story" Literally had me in tears. Another good doco on Orcas is entitled "Blackfish" 

The Elephant doco  is very much also about a Thai woman named  Lek Chailert, pictured here......10 ethical places you need to go to interact with elephants

I don't think you would think of our chimp like ancestors as star travelers either, I love the elephants too... 

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13 hours ago, beecee said:

I have had meaningful discussions with my dogs over the years, but like the octopuses, they will never achieve space travel.

You'll be telling me that mice can't achieve space travel next.

If that's not evidence...

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15 hours ago, beecee said:

Yep, so? There evolutionary traits and pathway, prevents them also from becoming space faring species.

I don't see why, it didn't prevent their ancestors from becoming us... 😉

15 hours ago, beecee said:

I have had meaningful discussions with my dogs over the years

How can you tell; did they wag their tale?

 

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14 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I don't think you would think of our chimp like ancestors as star travelers either, I love the elephants too... 

While our last common ancestor was still millions of years ago, our chimp and gorilla cousins today are unlikely to be star travellers unless accompanying us. What they do have though, that puts them head and shoulders above octopuses and tomato plants, is that humanoid form and some common traits.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

How can you tell; did they wag their tale?

And here he is once again, hypocritically whinging and whining about being condescending, yet still refusing to answer the OP question/s.🤣

ps: and its tail.

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23 minutes ago, beecee said:

While our last common ancestor was still millions of years ago, our chimp and gorilla cousins today are unlikely to be star travellers unless accompanying us. What they do have though, that puts them head and shoulders above octopuses and tomato plants, is that humanoid form and some common traits.

And here he is once again, hypocritically whinging and whining about being condescending, yet still refusing to answer the OP question/s.🤣

ps: and its tail.

How do you know the octopus form wouldn't be better if they evolved in the direction of conquering land?  

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1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

How do you know the octopus form wouldn't be better if they evolved in the direction of conquering land?  

I cannot put it any better then the answer to an inquisitie 14 year old in the following link, and the other links I have given......

https://theconversation.com/curious-kids-could-octopuses-evolve-until-they-take-over-the-world-and-travel-to-space-156493

https://psmag.com/environment/planet-octopuses-animal-species-likely-rise-overthrow-humans-67576

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-chances-that-as-octopuses-are-so-intelligent-could-become-the-dominant-species-on-Earth#:~:text=K answer views-,Originally Answered%3A Is there any chances that%2C as octopi are,have a long enough lifespan.

 

I would also think that any potential Aliens that have overcome the barriers of distance to visit Earth, would be far more likely to be Aliens in the form of those from, "Close Encounters of the Third kind" rather then those envisaged in "Arrival".

Don't mind also upright walking lizard people! as per "War of the Worlds" 

Essentially though I see the humanoid form as more likely than others, to undertake the construction, thinking, predictable problem solving, and travelling to the stars.....

https://next.voxcreative.com/sponsored/11387354/here-are-5-things-serious-scientists-believe-about-extraterrestrial

"Simon Conway Morris, an evolutionary biologist at Cambridge, thinks there’s a good chance intelligent extraterrestrial life will look a lot like us. Different species independently evolve in similar patterns, Morris argued in The Runes of Evolution, and would likely do the same on other planets. "The things which we regard as most important," he said in an interview, "cognitive sophistication, large brains, intelligence, tool making, are also convergent." If there are other planets that look a lot like planet Earth — and the Kepler spacecraft is discovering that there are — then the likelihood of human-like extraterrestrial intelligence on those planets isn’t a huge stretch. "If the outcomes of evolution are at least broadly predictable," Morris said, "then what applies on Earth will apply across the Milky Way, and beyond."

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

On the other hand, (and as mentioned in the above article) our first indication of ETI, maybe artificial and/or robotic...much as our own Voyagers and Pioneer craft, and the attempt at communication via mathematicsa and illustrative geometry. A view held by Seth Shostak of SETI fame.

Here's another................

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/g1592/we-asked-7-experts-what-would-aliens-actually-look-like/

What do aliens look like?

"An octopus is a good example of an advanced-alien analogue on Earth. Octopuses are quite (probably human-level) intelligent and live in a totally alien environment (compared with ours). Evolution has had to find novel solutions to the pressures they're under—pressures completely different than those that shaped mammals on land.

"Dolphins and chimpanzees are extremely close to us—we're all mammals. The last common ancestor for humans and dolphins was around 100 million years ago, and for humans and chimpanzees was about 10 million years ago. Most of the evolutionary choices leading to intelligence were probably made before the splits occurred. The last common ancestor between mammals and octopuses is much, much further back in time, probably 800 million years ago.

"Aliens with advanced technology would have to be on land (technology needs fire to kick-start it). What would we expect in order to develop a technology comparable to ours? Hands with fingers (for delicate, precise manipulation) are important. At least two legs are needed for locomotion. If it has four legs, think centaurs—you need those hands to build things.

"You need binocular vision to judge distance (to prey). Elevated head to see predators. Eyes near the brain to reduce the time delay (or degradation) of the visual signal. Sound and smell sensors (ears and nose). Your survival chances improve if you can use all of the ways you can to detect food, mates, and predators. Living in an atmosphere means sounds and smells will arrive before the stinky, noisy predator."

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Other interesting answers in that link.

Edited by beecee
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15 hours ago, beecee said:

I cannot put it any better then the answer to an inquisitie 14 year old in the following link, and the other links I have given......

https://theconversation.com/curious-kids-could-octopuses-evolve-until-they-take-over-the-world-and-travel-to-space-156493

They/you are probably right, as thing's stand; but think of life as a more complicated version of Texas holdem poker.

You're holding pocket aces, I'm holding ace and 2 of spades, and the flop is 10 and 7 of spades and an ace of hearts, as thing's stand you're holding the nuts, but there's 2 more card's to play.

17 hours ago, beecee said:

And here he is once again, hypocritically whinging and whining about being condescending, yet still refusing to answer the OP question/s.🤣

Let's ask the OP @Moontanman if I've answered his question?

17 hours ago, beecee said:

ps: and its tail.

Exactly, he/she could wag their tail; but couldn't tell you a tale

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21 hours ago, beecee said:

I cannot put it any better then the answer to an inquisitie 14 year old in the following link, and the other links I have given......

https://theconversation.com/curious-kids-could-octopuses-evolve-until-they-take-over-the-world-and-travel-to-space-156493

https://psmag.com/environment/planet-octopuses-animal-species-likely-rise-overthrow-humans-67576

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-chances-that-as-octopuses-are-so-intelligent-could-become-the-dominant-species-on-Earth#:~:text=K answer views-,Originally Answered%3A Is there any chances that%2C as octopi are,have a long enough lifespan.

 

I would also think that any potential Aliens that have overcome the barriers of distance to visit Earth, would be far more likely to be Aliens in the form of those from, "Close Encounters of the Third kind" rather then those envisaged in "Arrival".

Don't mind also upright walking lizard people! as per "War of the Worlds" 

Essentially though I see the humanoid form as more likely than others, to undertake the construction, thinking, predictable problem solving, and travelling to the stars.....

https://next.voxcreative.com/sponsored/11387354/here-are-5-things-serious-scientists-believe-about-extraterrestrial

"Simon Conway Morris, an evolutionary biologist at Cambridge, thinks there’s a good chance intelligent extraterrestrial life will look a lot like us. Different species independently evolve in similar patterns, Morris argued in The Runes of Evolution, and would likely do the same on other planets. "The things which we regard as most important," he said in an interview, "cognitive sophistication, large brains, intelligence, tool making, are also convergent." If there are other planets that look a lot like planet Earth — and the Kepler spacecraft is discovering that there are — then the likelihood of human-like extraterrestrial intelligence on those planets isn’t a huge stretch. "If the outcomes of evolution are at least broadly predictable," Morris said, "then what applies on Earth will apply across the Milky Way, and beyond."

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

On the other hand, (and as mentioned in the above article) our first indication of ETI, maybe artificial and/or robotic...much as our own Voyagers and Pioneer craft, and the attempt at communication via mathematicsa and illustrative geometry. A view held by Seth Shostak of SETI fame.

Here's another................

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/g1592/we-asked-7-experts-what-would-aliens-actually-look-like/

What do aliens look like?

"An octopus is a good example of an advanced-alien analogue on Earth. Octopuses are quite (probably human-level) intelligent and live in a totally alien environment (compared with ours). Evolution has had to find novel solutions to the pressures they're under—pressures completely different than those that shaped mammals on land.

"Dolphins and chimpanzees are extremely close to us—we're all mammals. The last common ancestor for humans and dolphins was around 100 million years ago, and for humans and chimpanzees was about 10 million years ago. Most of the evolutionary choices leading to intelligence were probably made before the splits occurred. The last common ancestor between mammals and octopuses is much, much further back in time, probably 800 million years ago.

"Aliens with advanced technology would have to be on land (technology needs fire to kick-start it). What would we expect in order to develop a technology comparable to ours? Hands with fingers (for delicate, precise manipulation) are important. At least two legs are needed for locomotion. If it has four legs, think centaurs—you need those hands to build things.

"You need binocular vision to judge distance (to prey). Elevated head to see predators. Eyes near the brain to reduce the time delay (or degradation) of the visual signal. Sound and smell sensors (ears and nose). Your survival chances improve if you can use all of the ways you can to detect food, mates, and predators. Living in an atmosphere means sounds and smells will arrive before the stinky, noisy predator."

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Other interesting answers in that link.

I am not a big fan of the super being idea as i think you stated in the ants comparison so maybe you agree with me. 

How ever natural selection pressures resulting in humanoid aliens is IMHO a big stretch, water selection pressure is quite straight forward.. Every thing from squids to dolphins are under pretty much the same pressure to go through water as fast as possible. This results in a similar body shape due to the physics of moving through water. 

I'd really like you to elaborate on why octopuses couldn't conquer the land, the only realistic reason i can think of is that vertebrates already dominate the land, remove them and the octopus IMHO could conquer the land given time and selection pressure.

Land how ever can be quite different from gravity to air content to pressure, I'm not sure I would place a bet on even vertebrates evolving much less humanoids. 

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

They/you are probably right, as thing's stand; but think of life as a more complicated version of Texas holdem poker.

You're holding pocket aces, I'm holding ace and 2 of spades, and the flop is 10 and 7 of spades and an ace of hearts, as thing's stand you're holding the nuts, but there's 2 more card's to play.

Let's ask the OP @Moontanman if I've answered his question?

Exactly, he/she could wag their tail; but couldn't tell you a tale

Pretty much spot on. 

 

Edited by Moontanman
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1 minute ago, Moontanman said:

I am not a big fan of the super being idea as i think you stated in the ants comparison so maybe you agree with me. 

Smarter then us? sure, a distinct possibility, but beings/entities as envisaged in "Contact"? or the greatest sci/fi movie of all time, "2001: A Space Odyssey"? agreed. Still, makes for great story lines. ☺️

You may like to ask dimreeper his choices, (and reasons) to the OP. He is pretending to me that he already has answered, but so far all I am aware of his cryptic philosophical garbage for the most part.

 

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8 hours ago, dimreepr said:

They/you are probably right, as thing's stand; but think of life as a more complicated version of Texas holdem poker.

Gee, some progress! But of course our experiences and observations tell us that lifeforms will be based on carbon " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-based_life  "

And while there are plenty of evolutionary pathways, branches, etc, we can make reasonably educated guesses as why octopuses and tomato plants will never become space faring entities. 



 
 
 
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14 hours ago, beecee said:

Gee, some progress! But of course our experiences and observations tell us that lifeforms will be based on carbon " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-based_life  "

And while there are plenty of evolutionary pathways, branches, etc, we can make reasonably educated guesses as why octopuses and tomato plants will never become space faring entities. 

Way to miss the point, yet again; all life, that we know about, has evolved from plant's...

Let me extend the poker analogy, every generation is a different hand and every hand is your chance to hit a royal flush, but if you don't hit it on the flop we get two more chances to tell the other player's.

16 hours ago, beecee said:

I am aware of his cryptic philosophical garbage for the most part.

But unaware of your prejudice of me, don't worry you're not alone, most of us are unaware of our personal bias'.

 

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1 minute ago, Genady said:

Plants evolved from organisms which were not plants. The not-plants also evolved from organisms which were not plants. The bottom line is, not-plants did not evolve from plants.

The bottom line is, we all started in the same place; change the place and who knows what will happen.

Maybe a space fareing 'alien' tomatoe... 😉

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6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Way to miss the point, yet again; all life, that we know about, has evolved from plant's...

Missed nothing actually...octopuses and tomato plants will never evolve into space faring entities, despite if going back further enough (as I referenced a few pages ago) we have a common ancestory.

Not really interested in your poker analogy, as per most of the links you have made..

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

But unaware of your prejudice of me, don't worry you're not alone, most of us are unaware of our personal bias'.

You  mean you would like me to give you a free hand, to make as many cryptic comments and errors as you feel like? 😅Not sure why you would see any of that as a prejudice, when more then likely, it is simply your desire for the last say and practising  your life philosophy on me. I suppose in some respects I should be grateful. 😉

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

The bottom line is, we all started in the same place; change the place and who knows what will happen.

Maybe a space fareing 'alien' tomatoe... 😉

Certainly no space faring octopuses and/or tomatoes, as per the many reasons you strangely keep overlooking. 🤭 Is that a prejudice? 😜

 

Let me again try and get through to you, as I believe this is your philosophical aspect, you see the fanatical need to needlessly oppose, under any circumstances...I don't say humans are "smarter" per se then other animals, but we are serendipitiously  evolutionary different, in such ways as to be the dominant/apex species, that will one day probably leave his home planet to establish colonies on other worlds...

You should think seriously about that statement.

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