Alien origin thought experiment.

[beecee]

30 minutes ago, swansont said:

“throughout” is doing some heavy lifting here. There’s a whole lot of space. “nothing” is what’s plentiful

☺️ Sure there's a whole lot of space, but also an uncountable number of planets, asteroids, comets etc etc...easy pickings for a space faring, inter stellar travelling species.

 

 

 

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

☺️ Sure there's a whole lot of space, but also an uncountable number of planets, asteroids, comets etc etc...easy pickings for a space faring, inter stellar travelling species.

 

Sure, traveling light-years to get to the next system is “easy pickings” 

[Intoscience]

12 hours ago, swansont said:

You don’t have to actually be on earth to be noticed.

Earth may not yet have been noticed anyhow, even with the radio signals broadcasted over the past century, maybe no one has seen us waving?

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Earth may not yet have been noticed anyhow, even with the radio signals broadcasted over the past century, maybe no one has seen us waving?

That's a different kettle of fish. This isn't about seeking us out, specifically

Earth certainly could be noticed as a low-ish gravity rocky planet from afar, irrespective of detecting signs of intelligent life. So if you're looking for raw materials, it's a candidate that you can land on, isn't very cold, and one that isn't overly costly in terms of energy required to go gather those raw materials.

So if you're plotting a path through interstellar space, we'd likely be on a map of potential refueling stops.

[dimreepr]

17 hours ago, beecee said:

I think you have  misunderstood. It is us that some construe as ants on an ant hill, compared to inter-stellar travelling Aliens...Perhaps that misunderstanding is my fault the following should be  (2) They would also more then likely have studied us for a period of time, and in that study, realize that while not as advanced as they are, we certainly are not anything like the comparisons we often hear, eg: Ants on an anthill/ Aliens...not Ants on an anthill/human.

If a lion could speak, we wouldn't understand it...

Quote

Wittgenstein explains this potential breakdown in communication is because lions do not have ‘any conceivable share in our world’. In other words, the lion’s utterances would be meaningless to us, because they would not be based on a shared sense of context. The way a lion thinks about - and views - the world is so different to humans, or indeed other animals, that they would be coming from a completely different frame of reference or context to the human they wanted to chat with at the watering hole (or pub!).

Even if they didn't hide, we couldn't tell if they're being friendly or threatening. 

53 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Earth may not yet have been noticed anyhow, even with the radio signals broadcasted over the past century, maybe no one has seen us waving?

Maybe no one can...

17 hours ago, beecee said:

Obviously. Not sure though wht anyone would equate, as one is scientifically validated, the other is just speculation.

Some one might, you never know... 😉

[Intoscience]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

That's a different kettle of fish. This isn't about seeking us out, specifically

Earth certainly could be noticed as a low-ish gravity rocky planet from afar, irrespective of detecting signs of intelligent life. So if you're looking for raw materials, it's a candidate that you can land on, isn't very cold, and one that isn't overly costly in terms of energy required to go gather those raw materials.

So if you're plotting a path through interstellar space, we'd likely be on a map of potential refueling stops.

I get your point, however rocky planets similar to ours could be quite common. Indeed current observational data suggests that many, if not the vast majority of stars with solar systems contain at least one rocky planet. 

Earth may well be on the list of targets, but if nothing special and quite common, then out of the billions of choices there is no reason why we should expect Earth to be picked out of the bunch. 

Based on this premise, I would assume the Earth would be chosen purely based on its accessibility/location, i.e. along the path of "potential fuelling stops."   

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

I get your point, however rocky planets similar to ours could be quite common. Indeed current observational data suggests that many, if not the vast majority of stars with solar systems contain at least one rocky planet. 

"Common" is similar to the "throughout" I objected to earlier.

How many rocky planets with liquid water are within, say, 10 light-years of earth?

 

2 minutes ago, Intoscience said:

Earth may well be on the list of targets, but if nothing special and quite common, then out of the billions of choices there is no reason why we should expect Earth to be picked out of the bunch. 

Based on this premise, I would assume the Earth would be chosen purely based on its accessibility/location, i.e. along the path of "potential fuelling stops."   

That's the thing; there aren't billions of choices if you are traveling along some path. And there's nothing about this premise where earth was "singled out" so that's moot.

[Intoscience]

16 hours ago, swansont said:

"Common" is similar to the "throughout" I objected to earlier.

How many rocky planets with liquid water are within, say, 10 light-years of earth?

 

That's the thing; there aren't billions of choices if you are traveling along some path. And there's nothing about this premise where earth was "singled out" so that's moot.

How many rocky planets are there with liquid water in 10 light years of Earth? I only know of one so far but it could be more. However 10 light years is a small region relative to the size of the galaxy so the question would be how many technological species are there in a region of 10 light years of the Earth, existing at the same time? 

There are billions of choices of paths, what are the chances that Earth happened to be on one of them? 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

How many rocky planets are there with liquid water in 10 light years of Earth? I only know of one so far but it could be more. However 10 light years is a small region relative to the size of the galaxy so the question would be how many technological species are there in a region of 10 light years of the Earth, existing at the same time? 

Small relative to the size of the galaxy is only relevant if your craft can traverse the galaxy without replenishing 

2 hours ago, Intoscience said:

There are billions of choices of paths, what are the chances that Earth happened to be on one of them? 

Irrelevant to the issue under discussion, unless one is proposing that the aliens wouldn’t be stealthy when approaching other solar systems, and that other systems don’t have resources aliens might want. I think you are arguing from a flawed premise. 

[beecee]

21 hours ago, dimreepr said:

If a lion could speak, we wouldn't understand it...

A Lion isn't an advanced Alien species.....

Cover of the Voyager Golden Record

 

"The spacecraft will be encountered and the record played only if there are advanced spacefaring civilizations in interstellar space."

- Carl Sagan

https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/golden-record/whats-on-the-record/

[Intoscience]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Small relative to the size of the galaxy is only relevant if your craft can traverse the galaxy without replenishing 

Irrelevant to the issue under discussion, unless one is proposing that the aliens wouldn’t be stealthy when approaching other solar systems, and that other systems don’t have resources aliens might want. I think you are arguing from a flawed premise. 

I'm not arguing anything other than why would the Earth be a target for visitation unless there was something special about it or happened just to be on route? 

It's like walking on a beach and aiming for a particular grain of sand that's of interest. Unless you already new about it and specifically aimed in that direction then the likelihood is you would never even notice it, unless by shear chance you happened upon it and was looking for something in particular that the grain of sand possessed. 

Now it might turn out that the Earth is special and as a result we are being noticed. In this case stealth maybe a preferred option from outside visitors, and for reasons not known or understood by us.  

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, beecee said:

A Lion isn't an advanced Alien species.....

It's not about who's more advanced, since there's no such thing as a babel fish and a universal translater is a fantasic fiction; language without context has no meaning.

A lion understands a lion, An alien understands itself and a human sometimes understands another human, if they share a language...

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

It's like walking on a beach and aiming for a particular grain of sand that's of interest.

A better analogue is, It's like walking on a beach and aiming for a diamond that's of interest.

Edited December 14, 2021 by dimreepr

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

I'm not arguing anything other than why would the Earth be a target for visitation unless there was something special about it or happened just to be on route? 

And I’m arguing the latter. It’s somewhere you would stop to replenish supplies if you were headed in that general direction.

But in arguing that, “10 light years is a small region relative to the size of the galaxy” doesn’t apply, and neither does “how many technological species are there in a region of 10 light years of the Earth”

 

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

It's like walking on a beach and aiming for a particular grain of sand that's of interest.

No, it’s not really like that at all. Grains of sand are touching each other.

It’s more like islands in the ocean and you’re on a slow sailboat. You’re going to plot courses with stops where you can pick up e.g. fresh water, unless you absolutely know you can make to your ultimate destination.

 

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

Unless you already new about it and specifically aimed in that direction then the likelihood is you would never even notice it, unless by shear chance you happened upon it and was looking for something in particular that the grain of sand possessed. 

We’ve identified extrasolar planets and the premise here is that the aliens are more technologically advanced than we currently are, so they would know that there are rocky planets around that average yellow star.

 

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

Now it might turn out that the Earth is special and as a result we are being noticed.

The latter does not require the former. We’ve noticed many extrasolar planets, without determining that any of them are special. Noticing comes first. How would you determine a planet is “special” without having noticed it first?

1 hour ago, Intoscience said:

In this case stealth maybe a preferred option from outside visitors, and for reasons not known or understood by us.  

Sure, there could be unknown motivations, but we already have known motivations.

[beecee]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

It's not about who's more advanced, since there's no such thing as a babel fish and a universal translater is a fantasic fiction; language without context has no meaning.

A lion understands a lion, An alien understands itself and a human sometimes understands another human, if they share a language...

Of course it is...a more advanced species understands that mathematics is a universal laguage, Lions and Babel fish not withstanding.

[dimreepr]

11 hours ago, beecee said:

Of course it is...a more advanced species understands that mathematics is a universal laguage, Lions and Babel fish not withstanding.

Please explain hunger in maths.

[beecee]

12 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Please explain hunger in maths.

We need energy to exist...we get that energy from the Sun fundamentally, and via food as an extension. Without that energy we hunger and die. That applies to any living organism. Our advanced Alien friends would know that. So why would we need to explain hunger via maths? Maths and other means as illustrated......

https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/golden-record/whats-on-the-record/

 

What are the contents of the Golden Record?

The contents of the record were selected for NASA by a committee chaired by Carl Sagan of Cornell University, et. al. Dr. Sagan and his associates assembled 115 images and a variety of natural sounds, such as those made by surf, wind and thunder, birds, whales, and other animals. To this they added musical selections from different cultures and eras, and spoken greetings from Earth-people in fifty-five languages, and printed messages from President Carter and U.N. Secretary General Waldheim.

[swansont]

On 12/14/2021 at 9:28 AM, swansont said:

Sure, there could be unknown motivations, but we already have known motivations.

Here’s an interesting take on the Fermi problem that’s related to this - the dark forest. Not bringing attention to yourself because someone out there might annihilate you.

https://kottke.org/21/12/the-dark-forest-or-why-we-should-keep-still-and-not-look-for-aliens

[beecee]

8 hours ago, swansont said:

Here’s an interesting take on the Fermi problem that’s related to this - the dark forest. Not bringing attention to yourself because someone out there might annihilate you.

https://kottke.org/21/12/the-dark-forest-or-why-we-should-keep-still-and-not-look-for-aliens

Interesting concept but highly unlikely I suggest.

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, beecee said:

On 12/15/2021 at 7:49 AM, dimreepr said:

Please explain hunger in maths.

We need energy to exist...we get that energy from the Sun fundamentally, and via food as an extension. Without that energy we hunger and die. That applies to any living organism. Our advanced Alien friends would know that. So why would we need to explain hunger via maths?

So, no you can't... 😉

16 hours ago, beecee said:

https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/golden-record/whats-on-the-record/

 

What are the contents of the Golden Record?

The contents of the record were selected for NASA by a committee chaired by Carl Sagan of Cornell University, et. al. Dr. Sagan and his associates assembled 115 images and a variety of natural sounds, such as those made by surf, wind and thunder, birds, whales, and other animals. To this they added musical selections from different cultures and eras, and spoken greetings from Earth-people in fifty-five languages, and printed messages from President Carter and U.N. Secretary General Waldheim.

What if they're deaf or don't own a record player?

5 hours ago, beecee said:

Interesting concept but highly unlikely I suggest.

Unlikely because, they can't get to us or because they don't exist?

16 hours ago, beecee said:

We need energy to exist...we get that energy from the Sun fundamentally, and via food as an extension. Without that energy we hunger and die. That applies to any living organism.

No it doesn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis...

Quote

In biochemistry, chemosynthesis is the biological conversion of one or more carbon-containing molecules (usually carbon dioxide or methane) and nutrients into organic matter using the oxidation of inorganic compounds (e.g., hydrogen gas, hydrogen sulfide) or ferrous ions as a source of energy, rather than sunlight

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by dimreepr

[beecee]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

So, no you can't... 😉..

I just did. We need energy to exist...we get that energy from the Sun fundamentally, and via food as an extension. Without that energy we hunger and die. That applies to any living organism. Our advanced Alien friends would know that. So why would we need to explain hunger via maths?

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

What if they're deaf or don't own a record player?

There are other senses in lieu of a whole species being deaf, (and you once again playing your silly philosophical games 😉) and if that was the case, probably refined to greater degrees of perfection.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Unlikely because, they can't get to us or because they don't exist?

Unlikely because I don't believe any advanced species, if they did exist, and if they could reach us, would really want for too much. Plus I have a personal theory [OK an hypothesis) that as any life evolves past a certain threshold of intelligence and technological advancement, any aggressive tendencies would diminish. Even at our own questionable state of intelligence and  technological advancement, if we found some form of intellgent lifeforms or otherwise, in the Ocean's of Europa, we wouldn't start blasting them with missiles or nuclear weapons. 

And I'm more certain that in the very small chance that some distant advanced species maybe aggressive, it would not/should not, stop us exploring and becoming a true space-faring civilisation. Afterall the Earth does have a "use by date" (as does the Sun) and if our species could survive extinction for a couple of billion years or so, our descendants may find another, possibly even better home.

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

No it doesn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis...

 Thank you. While I wasn't giving that too much thought, my question would be can chemosynthesis ever take place without a parent star? 

from your link.........................

"In biochemistry, chemosynthesis is the biological conversion of one or more carbon-containing molecules (usually carbon dioxide or methane) and nutrients into organic matter using the oxidation of inorganic compounds (e.g., hydrogen gas, hydrogen sulfide) or ferrous ions as a source of energy, rather than sunlight, as in photosynthesis".

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

OK, so the process does not require energy directly from the Sun or another star, but then we must ask, where does the carbon melcules and methane and other nutirents come about. I'm sure you know that answer as well as I. 

We were all born in the belly of stars. Carl Sagan.

Edited December 16, 2021 by beecee

[Airbrush]

On 12/10/2021 at 4:16 AM, dimreepr said:

Why do you assume more advanced is better?

"The war of the worlds" springs to mind.

Here's one:

Why are they hiding?

I assume more advanced because we think it is very, very difficult to travel to other stars.  If they can get here, they must be very far advanced in technology compared to us.  Does that mean they could know more about us than we know about ourselves?  Do we know more about lab mice than the mice know about themselves?

Maybe they are hiding from us to not disrupt what they are observing.  We don't intend to get mixed up in lab experiments so much that it affects the experiments.  We try to not have our thumb in front of the camera lens when we take a photo.  Maybe they understand us so thoroughly that they know exactly how much they can reveal to us (blurred, fuzzy photos and video) without us reacting in a manner that would disrupt they observations of us.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Airbrush

[studiot]

35 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

I assume more advanced because we think it is very, very difficult to travel to other stars. 

 

Or just very long lived.

or the perhaps the Scifi story in Analog SF is true.

That is the one about invading monkeys from outer space.
A monkey scientist wrote a paper entitled 'why the loptails don't have space travel'

[dimreepr]

12 hours ago, beecee said:

I just did. We need energy to exist...we get that energy from the Sun fundamentally, and via food as an extension. Without that energy we hunger and die. That applies to any living organism. Our advanced Alien friends would know that. So why would we need to explain hunger via maths?

No,you've just explained, in English, why we need to feed, not what it feels like to be hungry. Imagine an alien absorbs light directly through their skin, so their version of hunger is a tingle in their upper-flerman.

So even if you were able to convey the fact that you need to eat, they'd just shine a torch on you, while you starve.

[beecee]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

No,you've just explained, in English, why we need to feed, not what it feels like to be hungry.

I've explained admirably why we need food and energy, and that the opposite would mean hunger. If you don't believe me go try it. I'll wait for you with my pork chops and salad. 

Not really interested in the other cryptic nonsense about torches and light...which is rather funny....funny peculiar, not funny ha ha.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

I've explained admirably why we need food and energy, and that the opposite would mean hunger. If you don't believe me go try it. I'll wait for you with my pork chops and salad. 

No, you've missed the point entirely; I asked you to use your universal language to explain a feeling that an alien could understand without the necessary context.

Instead you try to explain why we don't need a universal language, it's almost like you don't speak the language you insist is universal. 

16 hours ago, studiot said:

 

Or just very long lived.

Indeed, it reminds me of the film "Wall-e" and the people in the floaty chair's, even advanced technology doesn't eliminate the vagueries of time and culture's that don't think they need to understand the founder's of their society. 

16 hours ago, beecee said:

There are other senses in lieu of a whole species being deaf, (and you once again playing your silly philosophical games 😉) and if that was the case, probably refined to greater degrees of perfection.

That sound's like something the Borg would say...