Anand_Haqq Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) . Money should be seen as a means ... not as an end ... friend ... . When you love something ... you put it ... as an end ... unto itself ... you understand ... . If you Love money ... you cannot Love people ... by the very nature of it ... . You'll be a miser ... trying to manipulate whosoever ... so you can achieve to your goal ... somehow ... related with money. In that circumstance ... people ... would be ... secondary ... and money ... primary ... . The scenery you mentioned ... shows money as a means ... therefore ... one ... who applies it to a reality ... in order to satisfy certain needs ... in order to achieve an end ... is not loving it ... is not adoring it. In that case, money is being used as a mere means ... . If you don't have the hability to understand a mere answer ... shut up ... or meditate carefully over it ... friend ... Edited June 13, 2021 by Anand_Haqq -3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Anand_Haqq said: If you don't have the hability to understand a mere answer ... shut up ... or meditate carefully over it ... friend ... bot (Human, algorithmic, or otherwise) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 The happiest people are not always the wealthiest people as has been pointed out many times throughout this thread. Unfortunately, in modern western society (and many others throughout the world) money is a means to an end. A person is unable to survive in society without it (unless you are fortunate enough to be in a position to completely live self sustainably, off the land so to speak, which is rare and arguably not really possible these days). Wealth can be measured in many ways and can be defined in many ways per individual. I consider my self to be fortunate that I have reasonably good health, family and friends, a roof over my head and a basic form of income to enable me to live comfortably, though by no means extravagant. If I really want something that I cannot afford then I do without or work hard and save up for it (I'm not a fan of credit facilities unless absolutely necessary) So by definition I could consider myself wealthy and generally happy, which then begs the question would more money make me happier?? My answer would be that more money may improve my security and sustainability and also provide me with the means to a be able to experienced more things, and possibly things I would never be able to previously. It may also buy me better health care for me and my family which in turn may improve my happiness. In contrast, poorly managed disposable monetary wealth can have an adverse effect that may lead to less happiness. In summary, its not really what you have (own) but rather what you do with it that counts. In answer to the original OP it seems money is an essential to live in modern civilisation so unless there is a better practical alternative then if you want to remain within the society system then you are stuck with it I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted October 10, 2022 Author Share Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Intoscience said: In answer to the original OP it seems money is an essential to live in modern civilisation so unless there is a better practical alternative then if you want to remain within the society system then you are stuck with it I'm afraid. The problem isn't money, it's what we imagine it is, for instance we imagine: That, it's a measure of one's sucess in life. That, if my money tomorrow isn't as valuable as it is today, then I've lost something. That, trinkets I have, because my neighbours don't, is valuable when they no longer covet. Take away our imagination and all it is, is a way to get what we need today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 On 5/10/2021 at 10:26 AM, iNow said: Money does, however, help buy happiness up to a point... According to recent data, anyway. Around October of last year, some new research came out suggesting that the threshold is somewhere around $70K per year. Happiness is harder below that point and easier above it, but the gains in happiness don't continue to grow as income does... For example, $300K per year is not meaningfully different from $70K per year in terms of happiness. This suggests that the money / happiness connection exists, but is less about being happier per se, and more about struggling less and not consistently experiencing poverty anymore once money is available. An interesting aside is that greater access to money/wealth DOES allow one to have greater experiences (both in terms of frequency and quality), and research shows that experiences DO lead to more happiness, FAR more than materialistic possessions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted October 11, 2022 Share Posted October 11, 2022 (edited) Money does, however, help buy happiness up to a point... According to recent data, anyway. Around October of last year, some new research came out suggesting that the threshold is somewhere around $70K per year. Happiness is harder below that point and easier above it, but the gains in happiness don't continue to grow as income does... For example, $300K per year is not meaningfully different from $70K per year in terms of happiness. This suggests that the money / happiness connection exists, but is less about being happier per se, and more about struggling less and not consistently experiencing poverty anymore once money is available. An interesting aside is that greater access to money/wealth DOES allow one to have greater experiences (both in terms of frequency and quality), and research shows that experiences DO lead to more happiness, FAR more than materialistic possessions. I'm with you on this. Interestingly the term "money is the root of all evil" if was true then all wealthy people are doomed to be dammed. 19 hours ago, dimreepr said: The problem isn't money I agree, how can money be the problem, it depends on what people do with it, and how they intend to gain it, where the problems arise. Edited October 11, 2022 by Intoscience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted October 11, 2022 Author Share Posted October 11, 2022 5 hours ago, Intoscience said: Money does, however, help buy happiness up to a point... According to recent data, anyway. Around October of last year, some new research came out suggesting that the threshold is somewhere around $70K per year. Happiness is harder below that point and easier above it, but the gains in happiness don't continue to grow as income does... For example, $300K per year is not meaningfully different from $70K per year in terms of happiness. This suggests that the money / happiness connection exists, but is less about being happier per se, and more about struggling less and not consistently experiencing poverty anymore once money is available. It's still all in the imagination though, $70K per year is WAY more than anyone actually needs; if I managed to resist the Diderot effect, I conservatively estimate that amount would last me 20 year's If we can teach people to think beyond our imagination/fear of tomorrow, then no-one would have a problem paying their taxes. 5 hours ago, Intoscience said: Interestingly the term "money is the root of all evil" if was true then all wealthy people are doomed to be dammed. Indeed... Quote One day a fisherman was sitting by his boat while playing with his child on a beautiful beach; his fishing pole resting against the boat. A wealthy businessman came walking down the beach, trying to relieve some of the stress of his workday. Curious and horrified at the sight of the fisherman wasting the day, the businessman asked, "Why aren't you out fishing?" The fisherman looked up at the businessman, smiled and replied, "Because I already caught enough fish for one day." The businessman followed, "Why don't you catch some more?" "What would I do with them?" replied the fisherman. "You could earn extra money," said the businessman, "then with the extra money, you could buy a bigger boat, go into deeper waters, and catch more fish. Then you would make enough money to buy nylon nets. With the nets, you could catch even more fish and make more money. With that money you could own two boats, maybe three boats. Eventually you could have a whole fleet of boats and be rich like me." "Then what would I do?" asked the fisherman. "Then," said the businessman, "you could really enjoy life." The fisherman looked at the businessman quizzically and asked, "What do you think I am doing now?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted October 11, 2022 Share Posted October 11, 2022 5 hours ago, Intoscience said: For example, $300K per year is not meaningfully different from $70K per year in terms of happiness. It is very variable from person to person. One can have multi-million loan and/or company on the edge of bankrupcy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted October 11, 2022 Author Share Posted October 11, 2022 5 minutes ago, Sensei said: It is very variable from person to person. One can have multi-million loan and/or company on the edge of bankrupcy.. Not really, even a bankrupt gets to eat; the true meaning of brankrupt is variable, for instance, Trump v Know body (at least know one worth talking about): the bank can't afford to foreclose on a billion, but it can make money on a poor farmer. It's literally the bank's that are bankrupt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVat Posted October 11, 2022 Share Posted October 11, 2022 The quote btw is not "money is the root of all evil" but rather "the love of money is the root of all evil." The finding that experiences contributed more to reported happiness than does material stuff seems generally true, though the number of Americans who cannot penetrate to that truth is sadly pretty high. An American named Henry David Thoreau pointed out that you don't own things but rather things own you. When you cease being so owned it's quite pleasant and freeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, Sensei said: It is very variable from person to person. One can have multi-million loan and/or company on the edge of bankrupcy.. On 10/10/2022 at 2:02 PM, iNow said: On 5/10/2021 at 4:26 PM, iNow said: Money does, however, help buy happiness up to a point... According to recent data, anyway. Around October of last year, some new research came out suggesting that the threshold is somewhere around $70K per year. Happiness is harder below that point and easier above it, but the gains in happiness don't continue to grow as income does... For example, $300K per year is not meaningfully different from $70K per year in terms of happiness. This suggests that the money / happiness connection exists, but is less about being happier per se, and more about struggling less and not consistently experiencing poverty anymore once money is available. An interesting aside is that greater access to money/wealth DOES allow one to have greater experiences (both in terms of frequency and quality), and research shows that experiences DO lead to more happiness, FAR more than materialistic possessions. Just to clarify to everyone, It was iNow's quote not mine (I made an error when selecting the quote option), however, I agreed with iNow that's all. But yeah, certainly the perception of wealth is variable. I'm not sure wealth in any terms of universal definition and be accurately defined. For me I'm most happiest when I can enjoy the simple things in life at the same time that I have the reassurance of security both for me and my family. So this is my definition of wealth. For others it maybe possessions, power... Or maybe even just a meal on the table for that day. 20 hours ago, dimreepr said: It's still all in the imagination though, $70K per year is WAY more than anyone actually needs; if I managed to resist the Diderot effect, I conservatively estimate that amount would last me 20 year's I don't think that is true, how can you know what money a person needs to live? Not all have the same responsibilities, live in the same economic climates, have differing health needs... A person living in a remote tribe in the middle of the Amazon is not like to have even come across money. By contrast a person living in the heart of the city of London will struggle to find accommodation to rent less than a few grand a month... so wealth is not comparable in this instance. Edited October 12, 2022 by Intoscience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted October 12, 2022 Author Share Posted October 12, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Intoscience said: I don't think that is true, how can you know what money a person needs to live? Not all have the same responsibilities, live in the same economic climates, have differing health needs... A person living in a remote tribe in the middle of the Amazon is not like to have even come across money. By contrast a person living in the heart of the city of London will struggle to find accommodation to rent less than a few grand a month... so wealth is not comparable in this instance. OK, let me simplify money, it's a method of exchanging two rashers of bacon for an egg or a brick, now!!! It's only value beyond now, is in our imagination; "A horse a horse my kingdom for a horse" Quote Those are the last words of Richard as he dies on the battlefield. He has lost his horse, which was a vital component of a fighter’s equipment in medieval times. Leading up to that he rushes about the battlefield killing everyone he meets, shouting, “A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!” The idea of a king wanting a horse so badly that he would give his whole kingdom for one is an overstatement, and ‘My kingdom for a horse’ is a now very well-known quotation. It’s meaning refers to being prepared to give anything for some small thing one needs above all else. Tomorrows choice is always good, until it's not... 😉 3 hours ago, Intoscience said: For me I'm most happiest when I can enjoy the simple things in life at the same time that I have the reassurance of security both for me and my family. So this is my definition of wealth. The difference between happiness and contentment is, you can always be content; until your not!!! Edited October 12, 2022 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intoscience Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: OK, let me simplify money, it's a method of exchanging two rashers of bacon for an egg or a brick, now!!! I think I understand where you are coming from, though you are the "Riddler" of this forum and unlike the super sleuths of the comic book world I'm often unable to decipher your posts!! What is value and what does this mean? First we have to establish value in its fundamental form from which we can all agree. Value for me can be defined - That which is most difficult to attain or replace that is most wanted or required. Money in the form of an object is just matter, this based on my definition has value that is dependent on what it is made of, whether cheap metal, paper, gold or in digital form. However, money as a symbol of worth against goods or service has value that may be required or wanted and possibly difficult to attain. Edited October 12, 2022 by Intoscience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 23 hours ago, Intoscience said: What is value and what does this mean? First we have to establish value in its fundamental form from which we can all agree. Value is only agreed mutually, me and you, me and the service provider etc. Word of mouth will do the rest, so long as it work's. 23 hours ago, Intoscience said: Value for me can be defined - That which is most difficult to attain or replace that is most wanted or required. As usual with human imagination, value is on a spectrum: The trivial end is what I want/desire, for instance, a sailor, who's been at sea for 6 months with only his hand for company; what percentage of his salary would he be willing to pay, for a girl? The non-trivial end is what I need, for instance, a sailor, who's been at sea for 6 months with no food and not enough water; now, what percentage of his salary would he be willing to pay, for a girl? 23 hours ago, Intoscience said: Money in the form of an object is just matter, this based on my definition has value that is dependent on what it is made of, whether cheap metal, paper, gold or in digital form. However, money as a symbol of worth against goods or service has value that may be required or wanted and possibly difficult to attain. What is a promise made of? Other than my dreams of tomorrow? Edited October 13, 2022 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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