Balancing a pools pH with Boron in the water

[NotYou]

Hi All,

One of the pH adjustment programs I use takes the amount of Boron in the water into account. I'm not sure it matters - So I'd like to know if the Boron concentration in pool water affects the amount of Hydrochloric Acid required.

If so, how? Is there a formula I can use to adjust for the amount of Boron?

Thanks in advance,

Buddy.

[exchemist]

42 minutes ago, NotYou said:

Hi All,

One of the pH adjustment programs I use takes the amount of Boron in the water into account. I'm not sure it matters - So I'd like to know if the Boron concentration in pool water affects the amount of Hydrochloric Acid required.

If so, how? Is there a formula I can use to adjust for the amount of Boron?

Thanks in advance,

Buddy.

I don't know about a formula, but this link: https://www.borax.com/BoraxCorp/media/Borax-Main/Resources/Brochures/borates-swimming-pools.pdf seems to contain a lot of information about the use of borates in swimming pools. It seems to act as a buffer, enabling the chlorine to work in its best regime and also to soften the water by binding calcium.

If it acts as a buffer, it may be that by using borates you can fully control the pH with them alone and can dispense with the hydrochloric acid entirely, but I stress I am learning all this as I go in response to your queries, so you might want to do some further checking.

[John Cuthber]

Have you added any boron/ borate to the water?

If not, then there's probably not enough to make much difference.

[NotYou]

Thanks for the link exchemist, 

However I know what Boron is used for. I just don't know if the Boron levels affects the amount of Hydrochloric Acid I require.

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, NotYou said:

Thanks for the link exchemist, 

However I know what Boron is used for. I just don't know if the Boron levels affects the amount of Hydrochloric Acid I require.

OK, then I can't answer that for sure. But seeing as borate is sold as a buffering agent, it looks to me as if using it may make use of HCl unnecessary. But you would need to check with a supplier of borate, I guess. 

[John Cuthber]

4 hours ago, NotYou said:

Thanks for the link exchemist, 

However I know what Boron is used for. I just don't know if the Boron levels affects the amount of Hydrochloric Acid I require.

Yes it will.

 

[NotYou]

Can anyone provide the calculations to compensate for the Boron?

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, NotYou said:

Can anyone provide the calculations to compensate for the Boron?

I certainly can't - and I doubt anyone else can since it seems, from the link I gave you earlier in the thread, to depend on what borate product you are using. The DOT product in the link is said to give a more or less ideal pH on its own. At least, that is how I interpret this passage:

"When used in pools at typical dilution, the new formulation has an ideal pH of ≈7.6. Above pH 8, the chlorine becomes much less effective as a sanitizer, but below pH 7.4 the equilibrium trends toward hypochlorous acid and chlorine is lost more rapidly."

 So, as I say, I think the best bet is to check with the supplier's recommendations for whatever borate product you are using - or have in mind to use. 

[gatewood]

On 5/9/2021 at 6:19 AM, exchemist said:

I certainly can't - and I doubt anyone else can since it seems, from the link I gave you earlier in the thread, to depend on what borate product you are using. The DOT product in the link is said to give a more or less ideal pH on its own. At least, that is how I interpret this passage:

"When used in pools at typical dilution, the new formulation has an ideal pH of ≈7.6. Above pH 8, the chlorine becomes much less effective as a sanitizer, but below pH 7.4 the equilibrium trends toward hypochlorous acid and chlorine is lost more rapidly."

 So, as I say, I think the best bet is to check with the supplier's recommendations for whatever borate product you are using - or have in mind to use. 

Let me see if I understand. The measurement is simply, how acidic you want the pool water to be? That'll be easy, simply by calculating or experimenting, to get the precise ratio for the desired pH.

[noquacks]

The borate pool approach has been abandoned for years. Chlorine still is king. The major pool service/suppliers do not touch the borate idea. I deal with one of the biggest names in pool supply/service in the nation. They buy my analytical chem products. Thats all I can say about it. I thought about borates,for my own pool,  but had to abandon the "idea". 

Edited July 2, 2021 by noquacks

[exchemist]

11 hours ago, noquacks said:

The borate pool approach has been abandoned for years. Chlorine still is king. The major pool service/suppliers do not touch the borate idea. I deal with one of the biggest names in pool supply/service in the nation. They buy my analytical chem products. Thats all I can say about it. I thought about borates,for my own pool,  but had to abandon the "idea". 

I don't understand why you say "chlorine is still king", as if borates and chlorine were alternatives. As I understand it, there is no suggestion that use of borates is an alternative to chlorine. They seem to be a buffering and water conditioning agent, not a disinfectant. 

Why has use of borates been abandoned?

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

Why has use of borates been abandoned?

Toxicity- though it's hard to see the relevance in the context.