Aliens from space (split from Time to talk about UFO's or now as the military calls them UAP's?)

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Again... During the "heyday" of UFOs, probably beginning in the 40s to the late 70s, after which the phenomena was pretty much ignored as anything but "crazy" the main goal of the air force was not to study but to debunk. Their motives were their own and few were privy to them but some scientists like J. Allen Hynek quite working for the air force due to the total lack of rigor concerning the phenomena. Hynek said that the air force was in the business of debunking not studying the sightings and expected him to explain them away no matter how unlikely the "explanation" was. The air force would tout the sightings they could explain while actually hiding info on the ones they could not. They ended up withholding evidence from Hynek and keeping him from having access to witnesses considered to be highly competent like air force pilots and gun camera footage. 

It sounds like they “withheld” evidence after he stopped working for them, which is…unexpected behavior? My former workplace has not shared information with me since I stopped working there. There is information that would be illegal for them to share with me. 

It also sounds like your beef is with the Air Force. They are a military organization. But the paradigm here is that “aliens” is not a scientific answer until there is evidence to support that conclusion. The null hypothesis is that aliens do not exist. This is no different than elsewhere in science. So charging someone with finding an explanation that fits with mainstream science is perfectly reasonable, since the default assumption is that these phenomena are not of alien origin. You can only entertain that possibility after all other explanations have been eliminated. Again - just as with the rest of science; experiments have to rule out all confounding effects that might be responsible for a result

The real question is why folks who claim aliens (or bigfoot, whatever) exist think that these rules don’t apply to them. (I think lack of awareness of the rules is a likely suspect)

 

 

 

[Moontanman]

4 hours ago, swansont said:

It sounds like they “withheld” evidence after he stopped working for them, which is…unexpected behavior? My former workplace has not shared information with me since I stopped working there. There is information that would be illegal for them to share with me. 

It also sounds like your beef is with the Air Force. They are a military organization. But the paradigm here is that “aliens” is not a scientific answer until there is evidence to support that conclusion. The null hypothesis is that aliens do not exist. This is no different than elsewhere in science. So charging someone with finding an explanation that fits with mainstream science is perfectly reasonable, since the default assumption is that these phenomena are not of alien origin. You can only entertain that possibility after all other explanations have been eliminated. Again - just as with the rest of science; experiments have to rule out all confounding effects that might be responsible for a result

The real question is why folks who claim aliens (or bigfoot, whatever) exist think that these rules don’t apply to them. (I think lack of awareness of the rules is a likely suspect)

 

 

 

I surrender, I cannot provide concrete evidence that there are aliens currently flying around in our skies. I still think current data suggests something extraordinary is going on but suggests is evidently not enough to justify debate much less investigation.     

[iNow]

Oh. Poop. I thought debate and investigation were still allowed. Dagnabbit. Why am I always the last one to find out?

[Moontanman]

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

Oh. Poop. I thought debate and investigation were still allowed. Dagnabbit. Why am I always the last one to find out?

Evidently proof is required before investigation can begin. 

[TheVat]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

Oh. Poop. I thought debate and investigation were still allowed. Dagnabbit. Why am I always the last one to find out?

It's a speculative thread, so I don't see why we can't still post sightings (as Moon was planning to do yesterday) and there could be debate as to their quality of data, what are reasonable testable hypotheses, etc.  And I would like to see more academic institutions send (as happened in Texas with the university sending a team of science grad students and prof to look at the Marfa lights) investigation teams to study the anomalous and possibly extraordinary.  

 

[Alex_Krycek]

9 hours ago, TheVat said:

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/claims-about-pentagon-ufo-program-how-much-is-true/

(from the SWR section of article)

Supposedly haunted and filled with all kinds of cryptids and paranormal phenomena, it was purchased in 1996 by Robert Bigelow to study its alleged phenomena. Members of Bigelow’s National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) stayed on the ranch to do a careful first hand study. One of them was Colm Kelleher, Ph.D., co-author of the 2005 book Hunt for the Skinwalker. Another was Dr. Eric Davis, an astronomer who now works at Dr. Hal Puthoff’s Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin, Texas, studying weird physics. Despite Bigelow’s funding and the investigators’ unfettered access to the alleged phenomena,

after several years of [Sherman] family trauma and of focused NIDS investigation, we managed to obtain very little physical evidence of anomalous phenomena, at least no physical evidence that could be considered as conclusive proof of anything (Hunt for the Skinwalker, p. 209).

So, all the King’s Horses and all the King’s Men and all the King’s cameras and electronic recording devices could not document anything paranormal occurring at the Skinwalker Ranch, in spite of scientists spending several years onsite trying to do so. NIDS never did document anything much happening anywhere, so Bigelow shut down NIDS in 2004. In 2016 he sold the ranch to Adamantium Real Estate, LLC, whose once-anonymous owner has just revealed himself to be Brandon Fugal, a wealthy real estate investor from Salt Lake City. Fugal had previously been involved in weird science projects, like “an attempt to create a gravitational reduction device that could produce clean energy”. 

(....)

Not only was the yearslong monitoring of “Skinwalker” by NIDS unable to obtain proof of anything unusual happening, but the people who owned the property prior to the Shermans, a family whose members lived there 60 years, deny that any mysterious “phenomena” of any kind occurred there. The parsimonious explanation is that the supernatural claims about the ranch were made up by the Sherman family prior to selling it to the gullible Bigelow. Many of the really bizarre alleged incidents described in Hunt for the Skinwalker were witnessed only by Terry Sherman, who stayed on the ranch as a caretaker after it was sold to Bigelow.

This isn't an accurate report of what has happened at Skinwaker Ranch. 

The History channel investigators have filmed UAPs emerging from, and disappearing into a fixed area of the property above a cliff (mesa).  Terry Sherman, the previous owner before Robert Bigelow, reported seeing a UAP emerge from the same area at night, however on the other side of the opening there was daylight and a clear blue sky.  Sherman also reported luminescent glowing orbs floating around the property that attacked his livestock and pets, as well as many other bizarre events.  Regarding the NIDS team, they are on record about witnessesing the same type of phenomena.

@Moontanman  Suggest you watch a few episodes because all this phenomena is captured on camera during the show.  Too many paranormal events to name - truly a mysterious place.  

 

Edited February 23 by Alex_Krycek

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I surrender, I cannot provide concrete evidence that there are aliens currently flying around in our skies. I still think current data suggests something extraordinary is going on but suggests is evidently not enough to justify debate much less investigation.     

I don’t see how you reach this conclusion. Who said debate and investigation are not justified? On the contrary, we’re begging for you to legitimately investigate, instead of the shoddy hand-waving that we currently get. For actual scientific data, instead of de facto attempts to get a waiver from scientific rigor. 

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Evidently proof is required before investigation can begin. 

What’s stopping you, and other like-minded folks, from investigating? Is complaining about having to live up to scientific standards too time consuming?

The problem, it seems, is you want others to investigate, and yes, you need to come up with something to motivate most scientists to spend time (and money) on someone else’s pet project. Most scientists have their own research to do.

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, TheVat said:

It's a speculative thread, so I don't see why we can't still post sightings (as Moon was planning to do yesterday) and there could be debate as to their quality of data, what are reasonable testable hypotheses, etc.  And I would like to see more academic institutions send (as happened in Texas with the university sending a team of science grad students and prof to look at the Marfa lights) investigation teams to study the anomalous and possibly extraordinary.  

 

I did post a sighting, from the documentary The Phenomena" but no one seemed to be interested in watching a 2 minute clip. None of us are privy to the original data, we all have to depend on what others have reported. To a great extent this is true for everything posted on this forum... UFOs just get an extra kick in the teeth from the get go. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

I don’t see how you reach this conclusion. Who said debate and investigation are not justified? On the contrary, we’re begging for you to legitimately investigate, instead of the shoddy hand-waving that we currently get. For actual scientific data, instead of de facto attempts to get a waiver from scientific rigor.

I must be stupid, I do present actual data, if I had waved you should point it out specifically instead of handwaving everything I say as illegitimate. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

 

What’s stopping you, and other like-minded folks, from investigating? Is complaining about having to live up to scientific standards too time consuming?

People are investigating, sometimes it doesn't adhere to scientific standards and when I doesn't it should be pointed out... specifically. Sadly we do not have access to the original data on most sightings and have to go with what is reported. 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

The problem, it seems, is you want others to investigate, and yes, you need to come up with something to motivate most scientists to spend time (and money) on someone else’s pet project. Most scientists have their own research to do.

Until quite recently, and I know you refuse to acknowledge this, scientists have been discouraged from looking into these things officially for fear of having their reputations sullied. This attitude dates from the 1950s when the air force controlled pretty much all the data not to mention the purse strings of many universities and actively discouraged any scientists from universities from looking into these things. There are some notable exceptions but they still encountered considerable friction from the scientific community. 

To expect aliens to leave behind "concrete" evidence of their existence just so we can know they exist seems to be a bit silly to me. Yeah they might, they might not, but there is no guarantee.  

Possibly we should drop the current nomenclature that implies aliens and just say that once all the data is in instead of saying UFO or UAP we should just admit they are Objects of Unknown Origin.  Then we can concentrate on trying to figure out their origin instead of assuming we already know they are or are not of alien origin. Who knows, one of the craziest notions IMHO is that they represent an unknown civilization we share the earth with. 

You have yet to back up your assertion that distance and relativity preclude alien visitation.  

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

You have yet to back up your assertion that distance and relativity preclude alien visitation.  

Relativity is established science and the onus is on you to understand it if someone cites it. From your sigs:

You do not possess belief, belief possesses you...

I'm always open to new ideas, I just don't let them crawl into my skull and take a dump...

And

Religion evaporates in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

Which could read:

Visiting aliens evaporate in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

 

 

 

[swansont]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 

I must be stupid, I do present actual data, if I had waved you should point it out specifically instead of handwaving everything I say as illegitimate. 

Anecdotes are not data

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

People are investigating, sometimes it doesn't adhere to scientific standards and when I doesn't it should be pointed out... specifically. Sadly we do not have access to the original data on most sightings and have to go with what is reported. 

How about we point out when it does adhere to scientific standards. That would save time.

 

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Until quite recently, and I know you refuse to acknowledge this, scientists have been discouraged from looking into these things officially for fear of having their reputations sullied. This attitude dates from the 1950s when the air force controlled pretty much all the data not to mention the purse strings of many universities and actively discouraged any scientists from universities from looking into these things. There are some notable exceptions but they still encountered considerable friction from the scientific community. 

Again, your beef is with the air force. But it’s not like no other scientists have encountered friction in getting ideas accepted.

 

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

To expect aliens to leave behind "concrete" evidence of their existence just so we can know they exist seems to be a bit silly to me. Yeah they might, they might not, but there is no guarantee.  

Did anyone say it had to be intentional? No crashes? No alien ever accidentally dropped something? No alien out on a visit ever had to duck behind a tree to relieve themselves?

 

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

You have yet to back up your assertion that distance and relativity preclude alien visitation.  

I didn’t actually claim that. I said “Nothing anthropocentric about the limitations of relativity, and the vast distances of interstellar space.” in response to an assertion that objections are anthropocentric, and the suggestion that alien visitation should not be considered extraordinary 

I’ve invited you to present scientific analysis to the contrary, but you’ve never done so. Anything you’ve said falls well short of scientific standards, like everything else involved with the topic.

[StringJunky]

With the ubiquity of camera phones to close the gaps, the aliens should have been conclusively recorded by now.

Edited February 23 by StringJunky

[Alex_Krycek]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

With the ubiquity of camera phones to close the gaps, the aliens should have been conclusively recorded by now.

If you're referring to UAPs, they have been.  There's a lot of photographic evidence of UAPs.

 

[TheVat]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

No alien out on a visit ever had to duck behind a tree to relieve themselves?

One, I will cherish this mental image for some time. Two, I have heard from a reliable source that the Mothership has told them to "just hold it."

 

42 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

If you're referring to UAPs, they have been.  There's a lot of photographic evidence of UAPs.

 

Absolutely.  There is solid evidence of aerial phenomena that are unidentified.  

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, TheVat said:

One, I will cherish this mental image for some time. Two, I have heard from a reliable source that the Mothership has told them to "just hold it."

There’s a scene in “Resident Alien” where the protagonist is asked by two kids if he poops. He says, “Everybody poops” and the kids giggle, “Just like the book!”
 

Anyway…I didn’t even mention the reaction mass a craft would have to leave behind if it ever landed and took off. (unless one is invoking new physics, which is a problem, because now you need evidence of that, and one can do those experiments in a lab without any stigma of alien research. NASA’s even funded such efforts, IIRC)

[Moontanman]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:18 AM, swansont said:

 

Nothing anthropocentric about the limitations of relativity, and the vast distances of interstellar space.

And nothing about these things preclude alien spacecraft visiting the earth.

8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Relativity is established science and the onus is on you to understand it if someone cites it. From your sigs:

You do not possess belief, belief possesses you...

I'm always open to new ideas, I just don't let them crawl into my skull and take a dump...

And

Religion evaporates in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

Which could read:

Visiting aliens evaporate in the light of critical inquiry much like the morning dew in the light of the rising sun...

 

 

 

Relativity in no way precludes aliens visiting the Earth. My belief on this subject is that there are occurrences that despite volumes of data remain unexplained and point to something extraordinary occurring. 

A bright object hovering over nuclear missile silos and the missiles going off line, 10 at once, doesn't prove aliens but it begs the question, what was it, and no answer has been forthcoming.    

[swansont]

8 hours ago, Moontanman said:

A bright object hovering over nuclear missile silos and the missiles going off line, 10 at once, doesn't prove aliens but it begs the question, what was it, and no answer has been forthcoming.

There was a light in my yard last night. What was it? Why is no answer forthcoming?

[Moontanman]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

There was a light in my yard last night. What was it? Why is no answer forthcoming?

Lack of data would be my guess. But then again...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11776067/Air-Force-vets-testified-witnessing-UFOs-TURN-nuclear-warheads.html

Edited February 24 by Moontanman

[Alex_Krycek]

10 hours ago, Moontanman said:

A bright object hovering over nuclear missile silos and the missiles going off line, 10 at once, doesn't prove aliens but it begs the question, what was it, and no answer has been forthcoming.    

The obvious implication is intelligent intervention / control.  That wasn't an isolated incident either.