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Blow to US Democracy -Split from: U.S. presidential election modelling


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22 minutes ago, Sensei said:

US problems are much deeper than D.T. .. actually, he is just the result

He is indeed a symptom of a deeper illness, but he’s also actively helped it to metastasize. 

21 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Just imagine how the mood would be different if there were Muslim groups throughout USA who threaten to conduct violence on social media

These same “patriots” would still be bloodthirsty. They’d just direct it at these fictional Muslims doing the things they’re doing themselves this week instead of directing it at our elected officials and civil servants. 


https://constitutioncenter.org/learn/educational-resources/historical-documents/perspectives-on-the-constitution-a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it

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If there is a lesson in all of this it is that our Constitution is neither a self-actuating nor a self-correcting document. It requires the constant attention and devotion of all citizens. There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you can keep it." The brevity of that response should not cause us to under-value its essential meaning: democratic republics are not merely founded upon the consent of the people, they are also absolutely dependent upon the active and informed involvement of the people for their continued good health.

 

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I think the problem is that Trump is very much a Republican. For many in the GOP, he only just now crossed the line with sedition and insurrection (and for others, he hasn’t crossed it yet. Elected of

In the thread I started, 'Canadian Protests', in Feb 2020, where no actual violence occurred because police chose not to enforce the law, and allowed unlawful behaviour for months, your reply was

Posted Images

I just heard about "seditious conspiracy" in the news.  This seems like what happened on Jan 6th.  Anyone involved in a conspiracy, where a murder takes place, may be charged with that murder.  Who exactly was involved in this conspiracy?  If a gang hires a get-away driver for a bank robbery, and the driver does nothing but drive for the gang, and there was NO plan of murdering anyone, BUT a member of the gang commits murder during the robbery, the driver is also charged with murder.

"Seditious conspiracy (18 U.S.C. § 2384) is a crime under United States law. It is stated as follows:   

"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both."

Seditious conspiracy - Wikipedia

"The first amendment of the U.S. constitution protects people who have differing ideas from rest of the population. But these rights are not available to persons who make threats. The U.S. Supreme Court has made it clear that free speech extends to protests, the exchange of ideas, and points in debate, but it does not include direct threats to a person's safety."

Seditious Conspiracy Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

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13 hours ago, iNow said:

Trump can be silent forever more and these currents will continue crashing on the shore. Unless he comes out and says VERY clearly, “any acts of violence at government sites or on elected officials dishonor me PERSONALLY,” then this toothpaste is already out of the tube and isn’t going back in.

I'm unsure how much of a difference a Trump statement to halt violence will make.

I suspect the Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, anarchists, etc. are using Trump's rhetoric as a convenient and acceptable reason to wreck havoc. If Trump tells them to stop I don't think they would as they have their own agenda. Trump just makes it easy for them to come out of hiding. 

The thousands of Trump supporters who showed up at his rally but then went to buy a churro instead of storming the Capitol after the rally may listen to him, but they are not the main problem.

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A good counter point for consideration. My thinking is such a statement from him would minimize, but not eliminate, the threats this week and next

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12 hours ago, iNow said:

These same “patriots” would still be bloodthirsty. They’d just direct it at these fictional Muslims doing the things they’re doing themselves this week instead of directing it at our elected officials and civil servants. 

I was more thinking back to 9/11 (and to some degree to the more recent terror attacks in Europe) and how it galvanized the population with anti-Muslim sentiments and, among others, resulting in endless wars. Also how a fairly open society managed to become fearful and increasingly restrictive.

The main reason I thought about this are because of the parallels some see between Islamic extremists and the radical white evangelical movement (https://nyti.ms/2LHNB5u).

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The blend of cultural references, and the people who brought them, made clear a phenomenon that has been brewing for years now: that the most extreme corners of support for Mr. Trump have become inextricable from some parts of white evangelical power in America. Rather than completely separate strands of support, these groups have become increasingly blended together.

This potent mix of grievance and religious fervor has turbocharged the support among a wide swath of Trump loyalists, many of whom describe themselves as participants in a kind of holy war, according to interviews. And many, who are swimming in falsehoods about the presidential election and now the riot itself, said the aftermath of Wednesday’s event has only fueled a deeper sense of victimhood and being misunderstood.

They even got their martyrs among the QAnon believers.

 

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

A good counter point for consideration. My thinking is such a statement from him would minimize, but not eliminate, the threats this week and next

Also one should not underestimate how deep they are in conspiracy theories. There is a good chance that folks would think that the deep state got to him and that they need to be even more violent to liberate their savior.

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9 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I suspect the Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, anarchists, etc. are using Trump's rhetoric as a convenient and acceptable reason to wreck havoc. If Trump tells them to stop I don't think they would as they have their own agenda. Trump just makes it easy for them to come out of hiding. 

And unfortunately, people who wear their conservatism like a hat are fooled into thinking these are fellow conservatives who support the POTUS and want to uphold the Constitution, instead of radical insurrectionists who want to burn the house down.

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3 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

And unfortunately, people who wear their conservatism like a hat are fooled into thinking these are fellow conservatives who support the POTUS and want to uphold the Constitution, instead of radical insurrectionists who want to burn the house down.

One of the things that caught my eye during the storming of the Capitol were the videos of people walking through The Hall of Statues. While there were obviously rioters at work, many of the people looked like tourists, politely staying behind the ropes indicating where visitors were allowed. It was a surreal scene.

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29 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I was more thinking back to 9/11 (and to some degree to the more recent terror attacks in Europe) and how it galvanized the population with anti-Muslim sentiments and, among others, resulting in endless wars. Also how a fairly open society managed to become fearful and increasingly restrictive.

The main reason I thought about this are because of the parallels some see between Islamic extremists and the radical white evangelical movement

Point 100% taken

 

image.thumb.png.28f4477b04533f369ded9ec1249d3616.png

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19 minutes ago, zapatos said:

One of the things that caught my eye during the storming of the Capitol were the videos of people walking through The Hall of Statues. While there were obviously rioters at work, many of the people looked like tourists, politely staying behind the ropes indicating where visitors were allowed. It was a surreal scene.

I think some of the surreality is caused by trying to stretch that Conservative Republican hat over the heads of the "tourists" you saw as well as these violent radicals. If you think about it, there's little difference between the far right radicals and the far left radicals when both blame the government for their problems, and are willing to break the law and justify hurting people to force their views.

I have a long-time friend who supports T----, and identifies as a conservative R---------. I can't talk to him about any of this because his position is, imo, completely manipulated by the right, and totally at odds with his personality. He grew up in a household where his widowed mom took advantage of the social programs she could out of necessity, and also had many ways to pay as little in taxes as she could. He resented the government cheese, got in trouble with the IRS as an adult, and gravitated towards the GOP mostly due to their anti-big-government stance. He's a bit misogynistic, slightly homophobic, but I've never heard him disparage minorities or talk about anybody in a hateful way. He's smoked pot and always chafed at too much authority, definitely not a law-and-order type. He got tired of dealing with his hair one day and decided to shave it off and go bald. In gaming, he's the Leroy Jenkins-type who displays little or no caution, busting and rushing with delight. Yet he identifies with conservative values and leadership, and regularly justifies their actions. When the riot started at the capitol, another friend made the mistake of including him in a text exchange asking if we were seeing what was going on, to which he replied, "Right on!" To be fair, this was before the violence was reported, but so far he's been exactly as contrite about it as T----.

I'm still trying to deal with this level of ignorance, and feel there's no good answer as long as these folks can continue to look in the mirror and think the hat they're wearing fits them well. That kind of mindset might sacrifice 40 years of friendship for "the cause" if he thinks I'm helping Biden eat babies. This blow to our democracy sent cracks down deep into our whole society, with trust being the biggest loss next to the loss of lives.

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Doesn't sound like a bad person.
A little misinformed, and ignorant of what is actually happening, but just a regular Joe, with a few problems like many of us, who expects either a little help from his Government, or to get out of his way. There are many such people; liberal in some ways, conservative in others. That doesn't make them good or bad; what does is when unscrupulous, self serving 'leaders' and news organizations start feeding them lies, conspiracies, label them as one of their own, and introduce doubts about the 'other side', such as election fraud, QAnon, Hillary's eMail, etc.
There were Conservatives in the 50s and 60s, and even the ones in the 70s and 80s were nowhere near as bad as what Conservatism, actually the Republican Party, has become in the US; Hell, George W Bush looks like a champ next to the current chump. This is a new phenomenon of the last couple of decades. And I fear a lot of Democrats, or Liberals, are falling for the Republican party/leader ruse. Just like they used 'fear' of Muslims after 9/11, they are using fear against the American people, the left fearing Republicans, and the right fearing Democrats, further sowing discord. If the Democrats fall for it, and hate all conservatives, America will never get past this.
The answer is to approach any 'reasonable' Republican leaders that may be left, and working together to restore trust by the populace. Let them understand that the Government is concerned with the well being of the country, not simply staying in power. And shut out ( if not convict ) those Republicans who supported the worst President in American history
If the Democrats start acting like the current Republicans, this will never end.
In 100 years, Democrats and Republicans will still be blaming each other, like Palestinians and Israelis, living to 'avenge' the past, and doing nothing for the future.

I notice a little 'understanding' in you above post, Phi.
I'm glad you used a 'detail' brush, instead of that wide brush you usually use to describe Conservatives.

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9 minutes ago, MigL said:

There are many such people; liberal in some ways, conservative in others.

I would argue this describes fully 95% of the species, and virtually everyone here.

It's why I look at these personal preferences as tools to apply to specific situations rather than hats to wear. The right tool for the right job, as opposed to wearing my hammer on my head to declare I'm going to use it for EVERYTHING. 

23 minutes ago, MigL said:

I notice a little 'understanding' in you above post, Phi.
I'm glad you used a 'detail' brush, instead of that wide brush you usually use to describe Conservatives.

This is the power of bias. For years I've avoided direct criticism of the whole group in favor of defining exact behavior I disapprove of, yet you think I regularly use a "wide brush" in generalizing. Very instructional.

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Last night I watched a BBC produced 2.5 hr documentary from just before Trump was first elected, up to a week or so before the Biden results and latest elections. It was entitled "The Trump Show" https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08svdkn

I am now more flabbergasted then ever as to [1] How he was elected in the first place, and [2] How Biden did not win in the proverbial landslide. The 2.5 hr show is in four parts and has interviews with Trump supporters as well as his critics. One that struck me was the interviews with Rudy Giuliani. What a nut!!! How did this bloke ever become a Lawyer?             Another part showed Trump and his supporters, including some evangelical Minister, with their hands all on Trump, praying for his survival during the last impeachment proceedings. All in the White House!!

 

Sadly our own Prime Minister is heavily involved with some evangelical, Pentecostal group and by his own admission, often prays for Australia and Trump. Obviously though, he isn't quite as unhinged as Trump!

 

Edited by beecee
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3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

yet you think I regularly use a "wide brush" in generalizing.

Just the fact that you use 'Conservative' interchangeably with 'Republican' is worrying.
Conservatives in Canada and Europe are more progressive than American Democrats.
At least half of American Republicans are just plain nuts.
The implication is that some of us who tend to be a little fiscally conservative are interchangeable with American Republicans.

You have used that wide brush on me, a few times …
And used perceived, or imagined, offense to unfairly lash out at me.
( bottom of page 3 )
 

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2 hours ago, MigL said:

Just the fact that you use 'Conservative' interchangeably with 'Republican' is worrying.
Conservatives in Canada and Europe are more progressive than American Democrats.
At least half of American Republicans are just plain nuts.
The implication is that some of us who tend to be a little fiscally conservative are interchangeable with American Republicans.

Well there is probably more need for nuance but I think it is not quite fair to say that say European conservatives are more progressives than US conservatives or Republicans. For example, Europe is for much of it fairly left when it comes to the financing social programs. However, many areas are very socially conservative. I think it is fair to say, though that in the US being fiscally conservative is not really associated with the GOP anymore. It has always been a talking point, but never a policy point. There are also certain aspects that are universal among conservatives, though perhaps differently scaled. But again fiscal conservatism is in most areas of the world not really a defining aspect.

Fundamentally we are talking about political identity here and what the worldview of folks are that consider themselves conservative vs those that do not. There are of course common themes, such as traditionalism, often associated religiosity (to various degrees) but various surveys and studies indicate that born of these there are also certain traits that are more common. Such as admiration for strong (often father-)figures, an assumption of how things should be (basically assuming a natural order of sorts) and so on. Republicans are obviously just a certain (somewhat crazy) flavour of conservatism and I take your point that one should separate those in most contexts. I will say especially in the Western world the political movements (such as social Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives etc.) are not that isolated anymore that they used to be and there crazy flavours popping up everywhere.

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Sorry CharonY.
I didn't mean to drag you into a long-running spat I've had with Phi.
My previous post was meant for him; I didn't mean to turn it into a definition of Conservatism.
It was a rebuke of assertions he's made concerning my political leanings/morals.

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24 minutes ago, MigL said:

Sorry CharonY.
I didn't mean to drag you into a long-running spat I've had with Phi.
My previous post was meant for him; I didn't mean to turn it into a definition of Conservatism.
It was a rebuke of assertions he's made concerning my political leanings/morals.

I don't want to dump on Phi in particular, but much of this comes from what I would consider "political bigotry". You've espoused some conservative views, and even though you believe them to be best for all of humanity, regardless of race, creed, national origin etc, you are assumed to believe in the worst of "conservatism" as well. (again of course Phi does not go any where near that far, but he certainly didn't hold back on his opinions)

Edited by J.C.MacSwell
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Again, my apologies to all, including Phi.
This didn't need to be public; I should have taken it to PM.

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32 minutes ago, MigL said:

Again, my apologies to all, including Phi.
This didn't need to be public; I should have taken it to PM.

Thank you. I was about to politely ask you all to STFU so we could remain focused on the upcoming 2nd US civil war, but I’m glad it didn’t come to that. Maybe there is hope after all. 

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https://www.vox.com/2021/1/13/22229052/capitol-hill-riot-intimidate-legislators
 

Quote

After receiving death threats, Republicans say they’re afraid to vote to impeach.

There is a disturbing reason Republicans in Congress are giving for refusing to break with President Donald Trump: They fear for their lives. 

According to Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO), this is a major reason why more House Republicans aren’t voting to impeach Donald Trump in the wake of the attack on the Capitol.

“The majority of them are paralyzed with fear,” Crow said in a Wednesday MSNBC appearance. “I had a lot of conversations with my Republican colleagues last night, and a couple of them broke down in tears — saying that they are afraid for their lives if they vote for this impeachment.”

Tim Alberta, Politico’s chief political correspondent, found in his own reporting that “Crow was right.”

“I know for a fact several members *want* to impeach but fear casting that vote could get them or their families murdered,” Alberta writes. “Numerous House Republicans have received death threats in the past week.”

 

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43 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

A case for a secret ballot in impeachment proceedings, maybe?

I imagine that would help in a number of ways. As it went today, however, they did a verbal call for Ayes and Nays. The chair ruled that the Ayes have it, but a Republican representative asked for a role call vote. Doing so forced everyone to put their name to it. 

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The transition is complete. Democracy has survived and fortified. The words from this poet laureate at the inauguration today do far more justice to the shift than I possibly could:

 

 

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2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Can we breath a sigh of relief yet? 

At least as far as Trump being able to pull off some last minute stunt (like declaring martial law) in an attempt to hold on to office.

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