Food and plants (split from Why do scientist "think" they know everything??)

[John Cuthber]

3 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Yeah.  2 years of doing it.

`You say you have have two years experience of converting energy to mass.
I'm saying you didn't understand the question, or you are lying.
Which is it?

[Bartholomew Jones]

27 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

`You say you have have two years experience of converting energy to mass.
I'm saying you didn't understand the question, or you are lying.
Which is it?

I have 2 years working with plants, soil and minerals from the woods; that is, with my hands.  I've seen the work that nature does converting organic stuff to compost, to hummus to soil.  In addition I've reviewed other people's more conventional ways.  I don't read scientific discussions as a basis but as a fresh look.  The more views I have into the actual nature the better my next, "aha" experience.  Call it what you want.

You people are willing to insult me because you despise what isn't serviceable to, your, money economy.  I despise money.  I treasure the created order.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

I have 2 years working with plants, soil and minerals from the woods; that is, with my hands.  I've seen the work that nature does converting organic stuff to compost, to hummus to soil.  In addition I've reviewed other people's more conventional ways.  I don't read scientific discussions as a basis but as a fresh look.  The more views I have into the actual nature the better my next, "aha" experience.  Call it what you want.

You people are willing to insult me because you despise what isn't serviceable to, your, money economy.  I despise money.  I treasure the created order.

Correcting your misconceptions isn’t meant as an insult, even though there are some that interpret it that way. As for the rest, consider it societal pressure to improve your contributions. In a setting like this, when you repeatedly overstep your limit of competence, which requires correction, it is considered poor form. Further, you are doing so with unjustified confidence.

Basically you’re decrying brusque behavior that’s a response to your own rude behavior.

[studiot]

1 hour ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

I have 2 years working with plants, soil and minerals from the woods; that is, with my hands.  I've seen the work that nature does converting organic stuff to compost, to hummus to soil.  In addition I've reviewed other people's more conventional ways.  I don't read scientific discussions as a basis but as a fresh look.  The more views I have into the actual nature the better my next, "aha" experience.  Call it what you want.

 

 

 I see little untoward about this point view provided you are willing to allow other points of view into your fresh look.

You have explained your meaning of 'energy to mass' in my opinion.

It is a valid one and a shame that it could not have been achieved with out rancour.

1 hour ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

You people are willing to insult me because you despise what isn't serviceable to, your, money economy.  I despise money.  I treasure the created order.

I hope you are not including me here.

 

Talking of other points of view, I had an interesting discussion with a friend about composting.

He was busy telling me how much he composts from his garden.

I pointed out that I was sure he was right but only using his own garden material runs the risk of compounding and perpetuating any deficiencies present in his soil.

Elements not present in his soil could never appear by recycling plants just from his garden.

But if he added materials from elsewhere, say orange  and abnana skins, he would be adding trace elements he might be short of.

[John Cuthber]

6 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

You people are willing to insult me because you despise what isn't serviceable to, your, money economy. 

Trust me; if I set out to insult you, you would know about it.
On the other hand, I'm quite happy to point out the problems with the society in which I live- not least among those problems is runaway capitalism. I'd be happy to do away with money.
But we don't improve society by believing fairy tales.

We know that plants get their mass from the air, water and minerals they grow in. Wishful thinking about other mechanisms will not help feed people.

We know that the world has not changed size - at least since they built stonehenge- because if it had, the stones would no longer align with the solstice.

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

7 hours ago, swansont said:

Correcting your misconceptions isn’t meant as an insult, even though there are some that interpret it that way. As for the rest, consider it societal pressure to improve your contributions. In a setting like this, when you repeatedly overstep your limit of competence, which requires correction, it is considered poor form. Further, you are doing so with unjustified confidence.

Basically you’re decrying brusque behavior that’s a response to your own rude behavior.

No, you haven't been antagonizing.  I appreciate your help.

7 hours ago, studiot said:

I hope you are not including me here.

No, you've been fair.

7 hours ago, studiot said:

 

 I see little untoward about this point view provided you are willing to allow other points of view into your fresh look.

You have explained your meaning of 'energy to mass' in my opinion.

It is a valid one and a shame that it could not have been achieved with out rancour.

I hope you are not including me here.

 

Talking of other points of view, I had an interesting discussion with a friend about composting.

He was busy telling me how much he composts from his garden.

I pointed out that I was sure he was right but only using his own garden material runs the risk of compounding and perpetuating any deficiencies present in his soil.

Elements not present in his soil could never appear by recycling plants just from his garden.

But if he added materials from elsewhere, say orange  and abnana skins, he would be adding trace elements he might be short of.

Yes.  I've read how it's always good to move the location of each type plant in successive years for the same reason.

The main thing I try to drive home is that the more diverse your materials the better.  When flowers came out early this past spring I harvested every day to get the new pollen on my ground.  I didn't get to see the result, so I'll try again this next spring.

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Trust me; if I set out to insult you, you would know about it.
On the other hand, I'm quite happy to point out the problems with the society in which I live- not least among those problems is runaway capitalism. I'd be happy to do away with money.
But we don't improve society by believing fairy tales.

We know that plants get their mass from the air, water and minerals they grow in. Wishful thinking about other mechanisms will not help feed people.

We know that the world has not changed size - at least since they built stonehenge- because if it had, the stones would no longer align with the solstice.

 

I almost accepted that.  But I can't.  Everything in the soil is depreciating by decay; oxidation-reduction (redox) they call it.  The air has some good stuff the plant can take.  But there has to be some rich material source and it has to be the radiant energy.  I can't budge on that.  Sorry.

[Bartholomew Jones]

On 12/7/2020 at 1:39 PM, John Cuthber said:

Nonsense.
Why do you think that's an "either  / or" thing?

Medicines commonly prescribed to be taken daily settle in the digestive tract because they're not foods and cause acidity.  People develop acid reflux and their bodies generally reject various foods.

[studiot]

11 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Yes.  I've read how it's always good to move the location of each type plant in successive years for the same reason.

The main thing I try to drive home is that the more diverse your materials the better.  When flowers came out early this past spring I harvested every day to get the new pollen on my ground.  I didn't get to see the result, so I'll try again this next spring.

Crop rotation won't fix this, if the trace element is not in your particular soil in the first place.

That is why I mentioned an external source.

There are plenty of soils in the world that are deficient in something so won't allow certain crops to grow or grow properly.

I think there are also some folks in the world who suffer particular conditions as a result.

 

[John Cuthber]

14 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

I can't budge on that.

Then why are you on a science web page?

 

12 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Medicines commonly prescribed to be taken daily settle in the digestive tract because they're not foods and cause acidity.  People develop acid reflux and their bodies generally reject various foods.

Why didn't you address the point I made (and which you quoted)?
It was about you saying "In other words, from the earliest ages we've always been toward better medicine at the expense of authentic wholesome foods. "
And I asked "Why do you think that's an "either  / or thing?".

Incidentally the thing that causes acidity in the stomach is the body deliberately making the stomach content acid to help with digestion.
Too little acid is a significant medical problem.
You would also need to supply evidence that "their bodies generally reject various foods." before we would take you seriously.

[Bartholomew Jones]

4 hours ago, studiot said:

Crop rotation won't fix this, if the trace element is not in your particular soil in the first place.

That is why I mentioned an external source.

There are plenty of soils in the world that are deficient in something so won't allow certain crops to grow or grow properly.

I think there are also some folks in the world who suffer particular conditions as a result.

 

I see what you're saying, except what distinguishes a trace element?

[iNow]

Just now, Bartholomew Jones said:

I see what you're saying, except what distinguishes a trace element?

Here, LMGTFY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_element

[Bartholomew Jones]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

Why didn't you address the point I made (and which you quoted)?
It was about you saying "In other words, from the earliest ages we've always been toward better medicine at the expense of authentic wholesome foods. "
And I asked "Why do you think that's an "either  / or thing?".
 

Because it appears deliberate.  The earth produces food free, with little human effort, an apple tree, e.g.  And it improves the earth.  The food is better when the processing takes place in the kitchen.

Medicine is a dependency that the power players like.  But it's presented as "better medicine."  Overprocessed foods are presented as better foods.

Maybe I should have stated it, Mass manufacturing robs the people of good wholesome living.

[iNow]

11 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Mass manufacturing robs the people of good wholesome living.

What narrow minded simplistic nonsense. Instead of spending our hours struggling to survive and avoid sickness and starvation, mass manufacturing and agriculture has freed humanity from immeasurable suffering and strife. Literally billions of lives have been saved through one scientific advancement in wheat crops alone, and the advancements extend well beyond that one item. Your glasses are rather rose colored... or just cloudy... glasses also being an advancement which stand counter to your “natural = wholesome” narrative

 

[swansont]

16 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

But there has to be some rich material source and it has to be the radiant energy.  I can't budge on that.  Sorry.

 

14 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Medicines commonly prescribed to be taken daily settle in the digestive tract because they're not foods and cause acidity.  People develop acid reflux and their bodies generally reject various foods.

The way this works is that you back up dubious claims with reputable sources. Otherwise you are in violation of our rule on soapboxing. 

33 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Because it appears deliberate.  The earth produces food free, with little human effort, an apple tree, e.g.  And it improves the earth.  The food is better when the processing takes place in the kitchen.

That's a dubious claim.

Have you looked at ancestors of the foods we eat, before humans did selective breeding and other domestication? Maize is a striking example.

https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2009/03/23/corn-domesticated-from-mexican-wild-grass-8700-years-ago/

That's a lot of improvement that takes place before you get to the kitchen.

Quote

Overprocessed foods are presented as better foods.

Some of that is false advertising. But some of it is fact. You can't validly dismiss the whole effort without analysis.

[Moontanman]

15 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Medicines commonly prescribed to be taken daily settle in the digestive tract because they're not foods and cause acidity.  People develop acid reflux and their bodies generally reject various foods.

Have you considered growing plants that add nutrients to the soil? I am rather fond of crimson clover.. 

[swansont]

58 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Have you considered growing plants that add nutrients to the soil? I am rather fond of crimson clover.. 

I was aware that clover adds nitrogen, but that's hardly a trace element (which was the context). Does it do more? 

[Bartholomew Jones]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Here, LMGTFY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_element

I try these days to get my data from folks.  Face to face preferably.  Even this is downgraded.

[Moontanman]

30 minutes ago, swansont said:

I was aware that clover adds nitrogen, but that's hardly a trace element (which was the context). Does it do more? 

No, you are correct, I apologize. Trace Elements are an iffy subject, the key word is trace. To really discuss trace elements we really have to know which ones are being discussed, which ones are necessary for the plants being grown. When I used to make up my own potting soils I ground up volcanic rock into powder to try and insure trace elements but a good fertilizer like miracle grow adds them easily. We really need to know exactly which elements he is talking about. The idea there is a general "trace element" is less than accurate.

I have to say that nitrogen is the biggest problem in plant nutrients I am aware of, I've never had a problem I could actually show a trace element or lack thereof to be the cause of that problem. 

After several years of trying to make sure trace elements were present I found out that it's very rare for trace elements to be a widespread problem except in limited extreme cases and generally sending a soil sample to a lab that specializes in this is all it takes to pinpoint the problem..  

Edited December 9, 2020 by Moontanman

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

No, you are correct, I apologize. Trace Elements are an iffy subject, the key word is trace. To really discuss trace elements we really have to know which ones are being discussed, which ones are necessary for the plants being grown. When I used to make up my own potting soils I ground up volcanic rock into powder to try and insure trace elements but a good fertilizer like miracle grow adds them easily. We really need to know exactly which elements he is talking about. The idea there is a general "trace element" is less than accurate.. 

I think what's being discussed is a plant that needs e.g. zinc (or some similar situation). There's nothing you're going to plant that's going to introduce zinc to the soil. You need to introduce it by other means, as you have described - bring in soil from elsewhere or add fertilizer that has it.

[Moontanman]

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

I think what's being discussed is a plant that needs e.g. zinc (or some similar situation). There's nothing you're going to plant that's going to introduce zinc to the soil. You need to introduce it by other means, as you have described - bring in soil from elsewhere or add fertilizer that has it.

I keep getting the idea that some sort of "General Trace element" is being discussed but so far no identification of a specific trace element has been named. The idea that trace elements are some sort of catch all or a group is false..  You have both major and minor trace elements no to mention many that only apply to one plant or a group of plants. I also doubt that the nutritional value of food plants is greatly influenced by trace elements, if the plant grows and fruits it has the trace elements it needs... 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Moontanman

[Bartholomew Jones]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

What narrow minded simplistic nonsense. Instead of spending our hours struggling to survive and avoid sickness and starvation, mass manufacturing and agriculture has freed humanity from immeasurable suffering and strife. Literally billions of lives have been saved through one scientific advancement in wheat crops alone, and the advancements extend well beyond that one item. Your glasses are rather rose colored... or just cloudy... glasses also being an advancement which stand counter to your “natural = wholesome” narrative

 

Hard work is refreshing and replenishing and rejuvenating.  Your opinion is narrow minded.

[Moontanman]

Just now, Bartholomew Jones said:

Hard work is refreshing and replenishing and rejuvenating.  Your opinion is narrow minded.

Your opinion is delusional, no amount of hard work can feed the population of the entire planet at this point.. 

 

[iNow]

19 minutes ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Hard work is refreshing and replenishing and rejuvenating.  Your opinion is narrow minded.

Please don't pretend to know how hard I do or do not work, either professionally or personally. I can assure you I'm much more of a work horse than a show horse in most areas of life. 

I take umbrage at your comments, and because you likely don't know this already, that means I find your comments insulting. 

[John Cuthber]

4 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Because it appears deliberate. 

... to you.

But not to us.
Why would ew think you are right and we are wrong?

4 hours ago, Bartholomew Jones said:

Medicine is a dependency that the power players like.  But it's presented as "better medicine."

Feel free to die, but when I get sick, I'm going to visit the doctor. Incidentally, given that I pay him*- who is in power?

*indirectly, but that's not the point

 

 

 

[Bartholomew Jones]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Please don't pretend to know how hard I do or do not work, either professionally or personally. I can assure you I'm much more of a work horse than a show horse in most areas of life. 

I take umbrage at your comments, and because you likely don't know this already, that means I find your comments insulting. 

When one human disrespects another, you won't get the utmost respect in return.

3 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Your opinion is delusional, no amount of hard work can feed the population of the entire planet at this point.. 

 

50% at least, of products purchased are packaged somewhat in plastic, or something not so biodegradable.  The product itself is often refuse to the environment.  The net product of the economy is hurtful, not helpful.  There's plenty of earth stuff for the whole population to flourish.

The only earth people shift around is for so-called development.  If half the "work" being done for this kind of progress were done for food production locally, to restore land to what it was, people would be healthier and happier.

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Please don't pretend to know how hard I do or do not work, either professionally or personally. I can assure you I'm much more of a work horse than a show horse in most areas of life. 

I take umbrage at your comments, and because you likely don't know this already, that means I find your comments insulting. 

The "have to for money" aspect depreciates the value of work.  The value of work is for the works sake.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Bartholomew Jones
ed to es