Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

[SteveKlinko]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

We have this explanation, you just choose to reject it arbitrarily. It involves neural activation in specific areas and specific patterns. Those excitements are cascaded into areas of our brain related to awareness and language, and we impose previously learned language and concepts on to all new information coming in in a dynamic attempt to make sense of it.

There's variance in the way this all works and it will be affected by past experiences and current environmental variables like fatigue, thirst, hunger, surroundings, stress levels, distractions, etc. 

You can simply proclaim that I don't understand all day long. Doesn't bother me. You're asking the equivalent of why the sky is blue, and rejecting others who patiently explain it's about Rayleigh scattering of photons which then interact with our visual complexes in specific measurable ways. 

Start asking clearer questions. Maybe you'll get clearer answers. Right now, all of your posts about standard A tones makes you look rather like a standard A hole. 

Everything you say about Neural Activation and Patterns is the usual Neuro Physiological description of what happens in the Brain. Do you deny the existence of the Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone, or of Redness, or of the Salty Taste?  You might not have Conscious Sensory Experiences. You might actually be a living example of a P-Zombie from Philosophy.

[zapatos]

31 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone

Your use of caps is confusing me. Is the "Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone" a case study or some other commonly known reference, or are you talking about the way humans experience the audio A tone?

Why are you capitalizing the word "brain"?

[Phi for All]

45 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why are you capitalizing the word "brain"?

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

Brain. Redness, Salty Taste  Zombie

My Neural Activation Patterns Are Tingling.

[SteveKlinko]

50 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Your use of caps is confusing me. Is the "Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone" a case study or some other commonly known reference, or are you talking about the way humans experience the audio A tone?

Why are you capitalizing the word "brain"?

For emphasis.

3 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

My Neural Activation Patterns Are Tingling.

 

51 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Your use of caps is confusing me. Is the "Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone" a case study or some other commonly known reference, or are you talking about the way humans experience the audio A tone?

Why are you capitalizing the word "brain"?

It is the way humans experience the audio A tone. Which leads to How humans experience the audio A tone?

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

Everything you say about Neural Activation and Patterns is the usual Neuro Physiological description of what happens in the Brain.

Correct.

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

Do you deny the existence of the Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone, or of Redness, or of the Salty Taste?

Of course not.

The issue is that all evidence points to the conscious experience being a result of brain activity.

You are suggesting consciousness is embedded in your face with no evidence other than 'I don't see any other explanation I like so it must be this'. Why doesn't it float above my head? Or exist in the "Consciousness Cloud"? Or better yet, why isn't it a function of neural activity?

[SteveKlinko]

9 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Correct.

Of course not.

The issue is that all evidence points to the conscious experience being a result of brain activity.

You are suggesting consciousness is embedded in your face with no evidence other than 'I don't see any other explanation I like so it must be this'. Why doesn't it float above my head? Or exist in the "Consciousness Cloud"? Or better yet, why isn't it a function of neural activity?

All I'm trying to do is to get you to think in different ways about things. I did not say that Consciousness itself was embedded n the front of my face. But I must insist though that the Conscious Visual Experience does seem to be embedded in the front of my face as an actual Screen of some sort. Maybe not embedded in your face. Maybe you just have not realized it yet.

[iNow]

8 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

Do you deny the existence of the Conscious Experience of the Standard A Tone

How are you defining conscious experience?

[SteveKlinko]

12 hours ago, iNow said:

How are you defining conscious experience?

I'm talking about the Redness of Red in the Visual Experience, the A-ness of the Standard A Tone, and the Saltiness of the Salty Taste. From Philosophy it would be the Qualia of Redness, A-ness, and Saltiness. It is the thing that you Experience in your Mind as a result of the Neural Processing.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, SteveKlinko said:

It is the thing that you Experience in your Mind as a result of the Neural Processing

Your definition is so vague and imprecise that I could equally interpret this to mean heat. Increased thermal radiation is what you experience in your mind as a result of neural processing. See?

Would it be possible for you to please refine what you've shared to make it more clear and useful?

[SteveKlinko]

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

Your definition is so vague and imprecise that I could equally interpret this to mean heat. Increased thermal radiation is what you experience in your mind as a result of neural processing. See?

Would it be possible for you to please refine what you've shared to make it more clear and useful?

That's ok if you want to continue to Mess with me. The post was not vague:

I'm talking about the Redness of Red in the Visual Experience, the A-ness of the Standard A Tone, and the Saltiness of the Salty Taste. From Philosophy it would be the Qualia of Redness, A-ness, and Saltiness. It is the thing that you Experience in your Mind as a result of the Neural Processing. 

Let me read this for you: "I'm talking about the Redness of Red in the Visual Experience, the A-ness of the Standard A Tone, and the Saltiness of the Salty Taste. From Philosophy it would be the Qualia of Redness, A-ness, and Saltiness." No mention of "Heat".

I specifically said what it is that I am looking for. For you to bring up Heat means you cannot read three sentences and put the thoughts together from them.

 

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

The post was not vague:

So

Conscious Experience = The Redness of Red

is not vague? Give me a break. 

All you do is repeat the same things and refuse to engage in any meaningful way. This is really the definition of trolling.

[SteveKlinko]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

So

Conscious Experience = The Redness of Red

is not vague? Give me a break. 

All you do is repeat the same things and refuse to engage in any meaningful way. This is really the definition of trolling.

I don't say:

Conscious Experience = The Redness of Red.

But I do say :

The Redness of Red is a Conscious Experience.

 

[iNow]

18 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

The Redness of Red is a Conscious Experience

Actually, it's about wavelength and saturation, but I suppose that's none of my business

[SteveKlinko]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

Actually, it's about wavelength and saturation, but I suppose that's none of my business

You clearly do not understand the issue if you want to talk about Wavelength and Saturation. But I understand it is difficult for some people. I can work with you if you want.

The best way to start is to think about the Color Red or whatever Color you like for the perception of Light. If not Color then think about a Tone for the perception of Sound. Start with the Conscious Experience (Qualia) of these things. You will, if you think Deeply about them, come to understand the unique and Special nature of these simple things. You will eventually understand that there is no way to Explain how Neural Activity produces these kind of things. 

[iNow]

Just now, SteveKlinko said:

You will eventually understand that there is no way to Explain how Neural Activity produces these kind of things

Your personal incredulity and lack of awareness of how these processes work is in no way a confirmation that there "is no way to explain" them. 

[SteveKlinko]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Your personal incredulity and lack of awareness of how these processes work is in no way a confirmation that there "is no way to explain" them. 

I don't care if you will not even try to understand your own Conscious Experience. 

[zapatos]

14 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

I don't care if you will not even try to understand your own Conscious Experience. 

Says there person who is not even trying to understand wavelength and saturation.

You get peeved that we are not giving weight to your floating screen theory yet dismiss our comments about neurological function. Pretty funny.

[SteveKlinko]

20 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Says there person who is not even trying to understand wavelength and saturation.

You get peeved that we are not giving weight to your floating screen theory yet dismiss our comments about neurological function. Pretty funny.

I completely understand Neurological Function, plus I understand that Neurological Function does not Explain Conscious Sensory Experience. The links that have been posted are about the Neural Correlates of Conscious Experience, but never about actual Conscious Experience itself. It has been known for a Hundred years that there is Neural Activity correlated with Conscious Experience but nobody has ever Explained how the Neural Activity leads to a Conscious Experience of something like Redness. Wavelength and Saturation are irrelevant to the issue at hand. Please at least try to understand the issue.  

[zapatos]

 

On 12/10/2020 at 2:12 PM, SteveKlinko said:

I must insist though that the Conscious Visual Experience does seem to be embedded in the front of my face as an actual Screen of some sort

Let's try another tack. Please provide evidence that the conscious visual experience is embedded in front of your face as an actual screen of some sort.

Simply saying the visual experience has nothing to do with neurology isn't going to get you very far.

[SteveKlinko]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:40 PM, zapatos said:

 

Let's try another tack. Please provide evidence that the conscious visual experience is embedded in front of your face as an actual screen of some sort.

Simply saying the visual experience has nothing to do with neurology isn't going to get you very far.

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. All the Conscious Light of your Visual Experience is painted onto that Screen. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

 

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. Let's call this Conscious Light Noise (CLN). It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located. Of course this is probably only an apparent Location because the CLS is a Conscious Mind phenomenon and is not constructed from any Physical Material that can be Located anywhere. However, it sure seems to be Embedded in the front of our faces.

 

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

 

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are painted onto your CLS. If you try to imagine some object, you will see a grainy, hazy, version of that object painted onto your CLS. If you rub your eyes, the Lights that you might See are painted onto your CLS.

 

The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. The Light that is painted onto your CLS is your Light. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, SteveKlinko said:

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. All the Conscious Light of your Visual Experience is painted onto that Screen. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

 

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. Let's call this Conscious Light Noise (CLN). It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located. Of course this is probably only an apparent Location because the CLS is a Conscious Mind phenomenon and is not constructed from any Physical Material that can be Located anywhere. However, it sure seems to be Embedded in the front of our faces.

 

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

 

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are painted onto your CLS. If you try to imagine some object, you will see a grainy, hazy, version of that object painted onto your CLS. If you rub your eyes, the Lights that you might See are painted onto your CLS.

 

The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. The Light that is painted onto your CLS is your Light. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.

Which part of the above is the evidence I requested?

[SteveKlinko]

37 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Which part of the above is the evidence I requested?

If you still don't understand it, then all I can say is I gave it my best try. Don't you think it was at least a pretty cool observation? Did you really not see the Visual Noise, and wasn't it apparently embedded in the front of your face? If not, then where was the Noise located for you. I'm still compiling data on this so I would be happy to get your experience of this.

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

all I can say is I gave it my best try

That’s embarrassing 

[SteveKlinko]

11 minutes ago, iNow said:

That’s embarrassing 

Did you actually read it? Were you not able to see your own Visual Noise? If you did see it then was it not embedded in the front of your face? If not, then where was this Noise located for you? I'm interested in all the different experiences that people might have. Wasn't this at least a pretty cool exercise? 

[Bufofrog]

13 minutes ago, SteveKlinko said:

Wasn't this at least a pretty cool exercise? 

No, not cool or interesting.  I would say it is silly.