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Alex_Krycek

The Killing of George Floyd: The Last Straw?

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1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:
1 hour ago, MigL said:
!

Moderator Note

You should have reported other members using fallacious logic to argue their points, the way they reported you. There's no need to waste your time on a discussion when someone isn't being honest. If you point out someone's fallacy and they keep using it, or they continuously fall back on strawmen to misinterpret your words, I urge you to use the feature. It gets staff attention.

 

 

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17 hours ago, MigL said:

You mean a system that doesn't screen police officers for white supremacist or racist beliefs before handing them a gun ?

This kind of implies that screening for racist officers is at the root of the problem. However again, it is not. The US policing system is set up to protect the status quo and has traditionally taken an adversarial stance towards group that were perceived a threat. It has created a warrior mentality where things can get deadly rather fast. Coupling this with low accountability, lower level of training and a systemic disdain for certain groups just creates a breeding ground for deadly encounters. Of course it is a fertile ground for white supremacists, (some anti-gang units like the Lynwood Vikings were actually neo-Nazis) it is not that these guys causes all the needless deaths.

In most European countries drunk brawls with the police do not end in deaths, though in perhaps more importantly, most police would not escalate the situation to that point, either.

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1 hour ago, CharonY said:

It has created a warrior mentality where things can get deadly rather fast. Coupling this with low accountability, lower level of training and a systemic disdain for certain groups just creates a breeding ground for deadly encounters.

So ALL cops are guilty of this "disdain for certain groups", not just the ones who are racist, white supremacist, or just a*sholes.
And 'screening' those out would make no difference whatsoever.

That's almost like the systemic laziness of Mexicans.
Or the systemic Mafia association  of Italians.
Or the systemic irresponsibility of Black American fathers.

There is a word for those who generalize about groups of people.
The word is 'notmakingavalidargument'.
( what did you think I was gonna say ? )

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1 hour ago, MigL said:

So ALL cops are guilty of this "disdain for certain groups", not just the ones who are racist, white supremacist, or just a*sholes.

Why do you think that?

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1 hour ago, MigL said:

So ALL cops are guilty of this "disdain for certain groups", not just the ones who are racist, white supremacist, or just a*sholes.
And 'screening' those out would make no difference whatsoever.

Nope, you do not seem to get the systemic part of it. What you claim is quite a difference to what I said. Specifically the system creates folks with warrior mentalities and especially following they repeated and adversarial exposure to certain groups, it becomes more and more common, it will affect behaviour. Add to that peer pressure (and other factors, there is plenty of lit out there, if one is interested) and the result is that certain folks (say suburban WASPs) are treated quite differently from Afro-Americans. It does not mean that everyone going through the system will become like this, but it does mean that these traits will be overemphasized. And that is why increasing the number of minorities in the police force only had a moderate effect. I should add that is some areas especially community oriented policing and by hiring (minority) locals, there have been positive effects to this systemic issue.

And again, it is a failure of assuming that the system is created because of the attitude of the actors- a systemic issue is based on the system itself. It can include hiring practices but it also includes rules, regulations, training, creating a certain atmosphere and so on. An individual exposed to a given system is then consequently more likely to behave a certain way. If a system is corrupt, for example and/or lacks accountability, folks are probably more likely to behave like they are not accountable. If it hits a certain threshold then even folks against it may be pressured into joining in. Can you see the difference now?

To make another example, let's say following school curriculum a generation of students learn that Leopold II has civilized the Congo and thereby glorify colonialism. Then, if they go out and think that Leopold's actions were just and that black folks needed to be civilized, do you think the issue is with the student or with the school system?

Do you think removing students or teachers would do anything without changing the curriculum?

The rest of your post just elaborates on the failure to spot that difference and verges way into strawman county. As such I do not see a good reason to engage with that part.

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10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Why do you think that?

I see you picked up a trick from Swansont.
I most certainly don't think that, and you don't have reading comprehension problems.

I'm sorry CharonY, I can't agree.
the word 'systemic', means system wide, as in 'everyone in the system'.
But even using your meaning, I can't bring myself to believe that a person who is NOT racist, can become a racist from system and peer pressure.
( I can see the process going the other way; a racist becoming more tolerant through education )
Only a person who is already racist/white supremacist/a*shole will be influenced to become even more racist.

I stand by my assertion that you guys need to do a better job of hiring only GOOD cops.

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22 minutes ago, MigL said:

can't bring myself to believe that a person who is NOT racist, can become a racist from system and peer pressure.

You ought to study human psychology and sociology more, then. It’s quite common. 

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The issue that I see with this thread is that I'm proposing actual implementable changes.
To the Police Unions and Hiring/training practices, for example.
Then we start to work on the DAs who bring up unfair charges on minorities.

Saying the problem is systemic ( your meaning CY ) means the whole justice system ( and more ) needs to change, from cops, all the way to the Supreme Court. And we both know that's not going to happen; so nothing will change.
The higher up you go in the justice system, the more political it is. And with your polarized two party system, who would even propose such a change, and hope to get re-elected ?

Myself, I don't see the point of self-flagellation, and saying "It's all whitey's or the system's fault, and not trying to do something about it.
People are dying needlessly, and all I'm hearing is blaming, but no solutions.

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30 minutes ago, MigL said:

the word 'systemic', means system wide, as in 'everyone in the system'.

Then you are wrong in your assumption. Systemic refers to a system as opposed to just parts. Following your definition there is no room for things like systemic racism as you will find hardly any system in which everyone is racist. 

You also might want to explore the difference in acting racist (consciously or not) vs following an ideology. For example there is a prominent series of experiment just looking at reaction times when folks learn to associate a picture with certain words. Some of these words were for example "gangster" or "thug". And perhaps unsurprisingly folks had better reaction times for associating a picture of a black man with these negative words than a white man. Does it mean that the person is a white supremacist? Not it means that they have been exposed to a system (for example media) that have been priming them.

If one does not acknowledge that these mechanism exist (as they are very well researched) then it follows that one will fail to understand important mechanism leading to racial inequalities. Another good example I think is unequal medical treatment based on race and the failed attempts to address that using a race-neutral approach, but I am running out of time here.

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36 minutes ago, MigL said:

I see you picked up a trick from Swansont.
I most certainly don't think that, and you don't have reading comprehension problems.

You're right. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I just couldn't believe you presented another straw man right after the notes from Phi. Sorry. I should have stayed out of it.

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Sorry if I was short with you, Zap.
A 'strawman' is creating an extreme version of the opposing argument and the proceeding to attack that extreme version.
While I did cite some extreme versions, I attacked generalizations about groups of people, which is what I perceived CharonY's post to be doing.

So you can call it a 'whole field of hay'  for all I care, sometimes 'stretching' an opinion helps demonstrate the faults with that opinion.

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Better screening of police officer candidates is surely a good idea, even necessary, but is not sufficient. 

Even people with stellar ethics and exemplary moral character will stray and behave within the confines of their local group or tribe. Their boundaries and guardrails of what is appropriate are set by local expectations and trends. What constitutes acceptable behavior is for the most part defined more by social norms than by personal principle. 

The system is stacked against people of color. The system is stacked in favor of qualified immunity for police. Not every interaction with police is a sign of systemic problems, and not every cop within the system is racist, but the system is currently unjust, the bad police are allowed to prosper and continue gainful employment even in the face of unacceptable behavior, and the problems are magnified for nonwhites... and have been for decades (centuries?).

Blacks make up only 13% of the population, yet they are 25% of police killings, and worse still comprise 38% of those in prison, and all despite committing crimes at the same (or lower!) rate as their white peers.

The system is broken and too many broken people are out policing our streets with qualified immunity instead of adequate qualifications for the job or appropriate behavioral expectations from their leadership. It’s harder getting a job as a hairdresser in the US than it is getting a job as a cop, and sadly that’s only a tiny part of the problem overall. 

 

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6 hours ago, iNow said:

 

Blacks make up only 13% of the population, yet they are 25% of police killings, and worse still comprise 38% of those in prison, and all despite committing crimes at the same (or lower!) rate as their white peers.

With regard to those stats you gave, which are known to be accurate, what makes you add the bold? Are you as certain that is true? 

If you want to simply point out that there is no reason to believe Blacks are inherently more likely to be criminals, I think everyone here would agree with that. But adding what you did condemns the police and justice system in your country ( not saying they should be off the hook) where other socio economic factors may be more to blame.

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9 hours ago, zapatos said:

You're right. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I just couldn't believe you presented another straw man right after the notes from Phi. Sorry. I should have stayed out of it.

!

Moderator Note

That was my first reaction as well, until I realized MigL misunderstands what is meant by "systemic" in this context. I hope going forward he understands we're talking about the process more than the people. It seems to be the key to understanding the "bad apples" argument.

 

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I think we are all struggling with the term and context. In particular (for me at least) it seems impossible much of the time to differentiate between systemic racism and systemic abuse of power inequities of all types. Others seem to believe it's always racism, whenever a white person has a position of power over a minority.

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2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I think we are all struggling with the term and context. In particular (for me at least) it seems impossible much of the time to differentiate between systemic racism and systemic abuse of power inequities of all types. Others seem to believe it's always racism, whenever a white person has a position of power over a minority.

So, what you're saying is "All lives matter"; haven't we got past that, yet?

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

So, what you're saying is "All lives matter"; haven't we got past that, yet?

 

49 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I think we are all struggling with the term and context. In particular (for me at least) it seems impossible much of the time to differentiate between systemic racism and systemic abuse of power inequities of all types. Others seem to believe it's always racism, whenever a white person has a position of power over a minority.

Others will of course not read that literally, or as intended, but look it as an example of systemic racism, and an attempt to preserve the status quo.

Much for "efficient" to be able to point than to have to make an effort toward real solutions.

 

Was that OK Phi? Or should I report every post whereI believe it (strawmanning) may be happening? (subtle or otherwise?)

Edited by J.C.MacSwell

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1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 

Others will of course not read that literally, or as intended, but look it as an example of systemic racism, and an attempt to preserve the status quo.

Much for "efficient" to be able to point than to have to make an effort toward real solutions.

Both you and Migl, seem to have missed the post where I suggested that all crimes, be tried with an even hand. That would seem to be a solution. We could try the old fashioned approach, as it pertains to cops and stack the deck, to ensure we get the bastards; but that would just lead to the police, revolting (police lives matter). No the best bet is we try the really old fashioned approach, write large by the founding father's, a fair trial for ALL.

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5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Both you and Migl, seem to have missed the post where I suggested that all crimes, be tried with an even hand. That would seem to be a solution. We could try the old fashioned approach, as it pertains to cops and stack the deck, to ensure we get the bastards; but that would just lead to the police, revolting (police lives matter). No the best bet is we try the really old fashioned approach, write large by the founding father's, a fair trial for ALL.

What needs to be in place to ensure that's done? It seems to be an elusive goal.

Most laws seem to at least attempt this...and then unfortunately it requires people to carry it out.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

What needs to be in place to ensure that's done? It seems to be an elusive goal.

Most laws seem to at least attempt this...and then unfortunately it requires people to carry it out.

Indeed, and if those people are subject to systemic racism, the best chance is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other... 😉

Edited by dimreepr

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45 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Was that OK Phi? Or should I report every post whereI believe it (strawmanning) may be happening? (subtle or otherwise?)

I would have told dimreepr to stop putting words in my mouth, and let him know that I don't appreciate being strawmanned. That way, if he does it again, you can report him for arguing in a persistently fallacious manner. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I would have told dimreepr to stop putting words in my mouth, and let him know that I don't appreciate being strawmanned. That way, if he does it again, you can report him for arguing in a persistently fallacious manner. 

Thanks. But wasn't Dim responding in a way that many of the more well meaning protestors (not the violent looters) are espousing? Doing his best to speak out against even "hidden" racism?

Edited by J.C.MacSwell

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4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Thanks. But wasn't Dim responding in a way that many of the more well meaning protestors (not the violent looters) are espousing? Doing his best to speak out against even "hidden" racism?

Don't you get it? I'm essentially espousing all live's matter, just first things first... 🙄

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2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

adding what you did condemns the police and justice system in your country ( not saying they should be off the hook) where other socio economic factors may be more to blame

It's not me doing the condemning, but the data. I don't know how else to explain this for you and folks similarly struggling to accept the point, but in terms of policing, sentencing, suspicion, jailing... on nearly every metric and across nearly every type of crime, the approach is asymmetric and disproportionate, and CANNOT be explained or handwaved away by socioeconomic considerations. A well-off black man is STILL more likely to be harmed by the current system than a poor uneducated white man. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

Quote

Of particular concern to some on the right is the term “systemic racism,” often wrongly interpreted as an accusation that everyone in the system is racist. In fact, systemic racism means almost the opposite. It means that we have systems and institutions that produce racially disparate outcomes, regardless of the intentions of the people who work within them.

<...>
after more than a decade covering these issues, it’s pretty clear to me that the evidence of racial bias in our criminal justice system isn’t just convincing — it’s overwhelming. But because there still seems to be some skepticism, I’ve attempted below to catalog the evidence. 

 

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

Quote

African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences. African-American adults are 5.9 times as likely to be incarcerated than whites and Hispanics are 3.1 times as likely.

<...>
This report chronicles the racial disparity that permeates every stage of the United States criminal justice system, from arrest to trial to sentencing to post prison experiences. In particular, the report highlights research findings that address rates of racial disparity and their underlying causes throughout the criminal justice system.

I could really keep going for hours given the bulk of evidence on this topic, but this feels like a topic where evidence simply isn't enough to make people realize how bad it is.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/black-men-sentenced-to-more-time-for-committing-the-exact-same-crime-as-a-white-person-study-finds/

Quote

Black men who commit the same crimes as white men receive federal prison sentences that are, on average, nearly 20 percent longer, according to a new report on sentencing disparities from the United States Sentencing Commission (USSC).

These disparities were observed “after controlling for a wide variety of sentencing factors,” including age, education, citizenship, weapon possession and prior criminal history.

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