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False claims about negative mass - Runaway motion problem, Vacuum instability problem, Wheel problem

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Posted (edited)

[ False claims about negative mass : Runaway motion problem, Vacuum instability problem, Wheel problem ]

 

1. The runaway motion problem is wrong.

Runaway motion is an argument that the two masses continue to accelerate, in an ideal situation where the negative mass and the positive mass are exactly the same. Runaway motion is used as a rejection logic of negative mass.

a) The difference in mass when creating the pair of negative mass and positive mass.

As a general conjecture, when positive and negative mass are born, the mass will be exactly the same, but this conjecture is wrong. There is at least a gravitational potential energy (binding energy) between the two particles.

Process of the pair creation of electron and positron, the effect of electromagnetic potential energy could be the same because the two particles had the same kind of energy(electron : +, positron : +). Therefore, the two particles could have the same mass. However, in the process of the pair creation of negative and positive mass, the effect of gravitational potential energy is different because the two particles have different types of energy(negative mass : - , positive mass : +).

This gravitational potential energy has a positive value and exists in a system containing two objects or two objects.

If you add or subtract potential energy in two cases(Pair creation of electron and positron, Pair creation of negative mass and positive mass), you can see that they are different.

609726458_9-1-Thedifferenceinmasswhencreatingthepairofnegativemassandpositivemass-4.jpg.7c86dc98ce607fede5aad88ae3133af2.jpg

In case the negative mass and the positive mass are pair created in the vacuum, according to the Energy Conservation Law, there must be a mass difference between the negative mass and the positive mass.

|-m_ -| > m_ +

Acceleration is determined by the size of the opponent's mass. If the absolute value of the negative mass is greater than the absolute value of the positive mass, there is a repulsive gravitational effect between the two. In this case, the acceleration of positive mass is greater. As time passes, the two masses become more and more distant. In other words, the ideal situation of pairing is broken. Because the accelerations are not the same and the distance of the pairing increases, the interaction of the other particles becomes involved. Therefore, runaway motion is not maintained.

b) There is a possibility that the gravitational potential energy will break the ideal situation.

Although the absolute values of the masses of two objects are exactly the same, there is a gravitational potential energy between them.

1288423064_9-1-Thedifferenceinmasswhencreatingthepairofnegativemassandpositivemass-3.jpg.91f2acca6270c1a9a3af9594c217c5e6.jpg

Thus, these experiments indicate that gravitational energy gravitates in the normal way.

                                   - Gravitation and Spacetime – by Hans C. Ohanian and Remo Ruffini

 

That is, even if the masses of negative mass and positive mass are exactly the same, the gravitational potential energy between them breaks this ideal situation.

c) Since "runaway motion'' assumes a very ideal situation, an unusual movement occurs, but in the real world, this ideal situation may be broken by external factors (forces or fields by other objects …)

d) ~~~

 

2. The vacuum instability problem is wrong.

In case of a positive mass, it could have negative energy level within negative potential. Nevertheless, even in this case, the total energy containing potential energy was still in the state of positive energy. However, for positive mass to enter the domain of (total energy is negative) negative energy level, energy should have negative value, and this means that it should have the characteristics of negative mass.

1884914808_negativemassisstableattheMaximumpoint.jpg.6234bfebf1feb653fb7c1fbf97f25da9.jpg

When negative mass exists within potential with maximal and minimal points, different directions of force and acceleration should be considered for negative mass.

F=-ma (m>0)

a=-F/m

The acceleration of negative mass is opposite to the direction of force. Therefore, the negative mass has harmonic oscillation at the maximum point and it is also stable at the maximum point.

In the case of positive mass, it was stable at the minimum point at which energy is the low. However, in case of negative mass, stable equilibrium is a point of maximum value, not a point of minimum value.

It is stable at a low energy state in the case of positive mass. However, it is stable at a high energy state in the case of negative mass. Due to this, “the problem of transition to minus infinite energy level'' does not occur, therefore negative mass(energy) and positive mass(energy) can exist stably in our universe.

~~~

 

3. The wheel problem is wrong.

What happens if one attaches a negative and positive mass pair to the rim of a wheel? This is incompatible with general relativity, for the device gets more massive.

                                                                                                                                                            -Thomas Gold, in Negative mass in general relativity.

a) In terms of force

1396294355_Whenthenegativeandpositivemassisattachedtotheendofthewheel.Intermsofforce.jpg.d78505e97c8dc7609e73a914c107ddfd.jpg

There is a problem of "How do you combine a negative mass with a rod?" But let's assume that it is connected in any way.

The forces acting on both rods are equal in magnitude and opposite directions.

F_{L} = - F_{R}

Therefore, the wheel does not rotate.

b) In terms of momentum

1849979092_Whenthenegativeandpositivemassisattachedtotheendofthewheel.Intermsofmomentum.jpg.54d9d7948d466187d1927a59f410abe6.jpg

In order for the wheel to move, momentum must be transmitted to the rod. But,

P_{L} = - P_{R}

The momentum transmitted to both rods is completely canceled.

Therefore, the wheel does not rotate. He should have thought that the momentum had to be transmitted in order for the wheel to rotate.

 

1031570735_DifferentformsofexplanationbasedoncriteriaForceMotionActiveMass.negativeinertialmass.jpg.80b50b2f359d4ba690af73714a980a4f.jpg

Fig.x. Different forms of explanation based on criteria(Force, Motion, Active Mass). Due to the negative inertial mass, the direction of force and motion changes

 

[ Resurrection Request for Negative Mass. ]

All new discoveries were called new discoveries because they were not found until then. Throughout the history of science, among the things that have not yet been discovered, new discoveries have had many examples. In other words, it does not guarantee that undiscovered findings of any physical object will be undiscovered in the future. The history of physics, and even the history of science.

And even if we find something, our existing knowledge either rejects this discovery or tries to interpret it through existing ideas.

=======

826605248_Adamriess-lecture-1.jpg.276eeb5e2145ae5bdb3e7b2307b357c2.jpg

Negative Mass?

Actually the first indication of the discovery!

1541083118_AdamRiess-nobellecture-3.jpg.8e95ec1fdcf65e4062499dde54d56ced.jpg

Days later… What does this mean?

There cannot be negative mass, but would Einstein’s Cosmological Constant explain this acceleration?

=======

In 1998 observations, the first result of the Friedmann equation was negative (gravitational) mass density. But the researchers, who had difficulty accepting negative masses, modified the equation. And they argue that the accelerated expansion of the universe is evidence of the existence of a cosmological constant.

From the second Friedmann equation or acceleration equation,

1049940241_2-friedmannequationandaccelerationequation-2-1.jpg.ba6eeea74186dd7c15191bd44f725e41.jpg

Since ρ is energy density in the acceleration equation, the pressure term P also has a dimension of energy density(c=1). Current acceleration equation inevitably require negative (gravitational) mass density. The mainstream produces acceleration expansion by setting the pressure of the cosmological constant or vacuum energy to P = -ρ  

However, the notion(dark energy term) created by the mainstream has an inertial mass density of +1(p), equivalent mass density of kinetic energy(or pressure term) of -3(p), with gravitational mass density of -2(p). Not only different signs, but different values. It violates? the principle of equivalence of inertial mass and gravitational mass, which is the basis of general relativity theory.

Looking at the dark energy term,

- 2ρ = ρ + 3( -ρ ) = - 2ρ 

~~~~

In the process of discarding the negative mass that is the result of the field equation, it is assumed that the false claims listed above played a key role. Since the rejection logics for the negative mass are wrong, the negative mass model needs to be reviewed again.

*Regardless of the problem of dark matter and dark energy, the above three arguments are the core problem of negative mass.

========

# Paper

1) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286935998

2) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324525352

 

Edited by icarus2

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23 minutes ago, icarus2 said:

Process of the pair creation of electron and positron, the effect of electromagnetic potential energy could be the same because the two particles had the same kind of energy(electron : +, positron : +). Therefore, the two particles could have the same mass. However, in the process of the pair creation of negative and positive mass, the effect of gravitational potential energy is different because the two particles have different types of energy(negative mass : - , positive mass : +).

Are you suggesting that the positron or electron has negative mass ?

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!

Moderator Note

Moved to Speculations

 

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1 hour ago, studiot said:

 

Are you suggesting that the positron or electron has negative mass ?

No. Both electron and positron have positive mass.

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Posted (edited)

There is several problems with the above. Pressure is a mean average vector. It describes the amount of force upon container walls in classical treatment. Under GR it is described via the i'th direction in the stress energy tensor.

 The p=-p is a vector directional representation. The cosmological constant has a positive energy density it's value is roughly

[math] 7.0*10^{-10} math] joules/m^3

Negative pressure does not equate to negative energy density.

Energy is the ability to perform work. Under GR the baseline is the Einstein vacuum which is devoid of all energy density. The cosmological constant is above that baseline just as is all matter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress–energy_tensor

What this means is that negative pressure is tension it takes work to expand a fluid rather than take work to compress a fluid that is what negative pressure describes. It is also why w=-1 describes and incompressable fluid as no compression force is applied. 

See here for reference of how the equations of state apply to the acceleration equation (actually it's the deceleration equation) 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~dhw/A5682/notes4.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiWj8KEsYfoAhWBJTQIHd-2CEoQFjABegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0xjZcR1b8OcNFbrriXGEr2

 

 

Edited by Mordred

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At first reading I assumed he meant electron/positron pairs had positive/negative masses, and stopped reading.
Turns out he's actually implying the direction of a vector potential makes it positive or negative absolute value, not just convention.

And again I stopped reading...

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, icarus2 said:

a) The difference in mass when creating the pair of negative mass and positive mass.

As a general conjecture, when positive and negative mass are born, the mass will be exactly the same, but this conjecture is wrong. There is at least a gravitational potential energy (binding energy) between the two particles.

Process of the pair creation of electron and positron, the effect of electromagnetic potential energy could be the same because the two particles had the same kind of energy(electron : +, positron : +). Therefore, the two particles could have the same mass. However, in the process of the pair creation of negative and positive mass, the effect of gravitational potential energy is different because the two particles have different types of energy(negative mass : - , positive mass : +).

This gravitational potential energy has a positive value and exists in a system containing two objects or two objects.

If you add or subtract potential energy in two cases(Pair creation of electron and positron, Pair creation of negative mass and positive mass), you can see that they are different.

609726458_9-1-Thedifferenceinmasswhencreatingthepairofnegativemassandpositivemass-4.jpg.7c86dc98ce607fede5aad88ae3133af2.jpg

In case the negative mass and the positive mass are pair created in the vacuum, according to the Energy Conservation Law, there must be a mass difference between the negative mass and the positive mass.

|-m_ -| > m_ +

In simple terms,

1) Pair creation of two positive mass particles In the process of the pair creation of electron and positron,
electron's mass(energy) = positron's mass(energy) = +10, potential energy = +1 or -1 

+10 : +10 ////// +10 : +10
   -1 : -1       ////// +1 : +1
-------------- ////// --------------------
+9 = +9    ////// +11 = +11

2) Pair creation when one has positive mass and the other has negative mass
But, in the process of the pair creation of negative and positive mass, negative mass(energy) = -10, positive mass(energy) = +10,
-10 : +10 ////////// -10 : +10
  -1 : -1      ////////// +1 : +1
---------------- ////// --------------------
|-11| ≠ | +9| ////// | -9| ≠ |+11|
 
With the sign of negative mass and positive mass different, the difference occurs because the potential energy has a sign of either +  or - .
 
Edited by icarus2

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Posted (edited)

No particle anti particle pairs both have positive energy density. The only difference between the two is charge.

The positron mass is identical to the electron mass. The plus and minus sign is an identifier.

Edited by Mordred

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Mordred said:

No particle anti particle pairs both have positive energy density. The only difference between the two is charge.

The positron mass is identical to the electron mass. The plus and minus sign is an identifier.

Yes! I know too. I have never claimed that antimatter is a negative mass.

I don't know why you keep saying that.

21 hours ago, icarus2 said:

[ False claims about negative mass : Runaway

21 hours ago, icarus2 said:

 

As a general conjecture, when positive and negative mass are born, the mass will be exactly the same, but this conjecture is wrong.

 

 

What I'm explaining for example is this phrase above. 

One of the backgrounds that the public makes this assumption(conjecture) is the experience gained during pair creation of electron and positron.

It(pair creation of electron and positron) is only intended to explain that experience differs from the situation at pair creation of negative and positive masses.

Edited by icarus2

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2 minutes ago, icarus2 said:

Yes! I know too. I have never claimed that antimatter is a negative mass.

I don't know why you keep saying that.

!

Moderator Note

The reason people keep saying that is because it appears to be what you are claiming.

If that is not the case, then you need to explain, very briefly, what you are claiming. If you are unable to do that, then there is little point this thread staying open.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/7/2020 at 3:17 AM, icarus2 said:

a) The difference in mass when creating the pair of negative mass and positive mass.

~~~~~

609726458_9-1-Thedifferenceinmasswhencreatingthepairofnegativemassandpositivemass-4.jpg.7c86dc98ce607fede5aad88ae3133af2.jpg

In case the negative mass and the positive mass are pair created in the vacuum, according to the Energy Conservation Law, there must be a mass difference between the negative mass and the positive mass.

|-m_ -| > m_ +

Acceleration is determined by the size of the opponent's mass. If the absolute value of the negative mass is greater than the absolute value of the positive mass, there is a repulsive gravitational effect between the two. In this case, the acceleration of positive mass is greater. As time passes, the two masses become more and more distant. In other words, the ideal situation of pairing is broken. Because the accelerations are not the same and the distance of the pairing increases, the interaction of the other particles becomes involved. Therefore, runaway motion is not maintained.

1280840435_negativemassandpositivemass-repulsivemotion-1.thumb.jpg.76a722127bcd517bf0d083a9c5f25910.jpg

Acceleration is determined by the size of the opponent's mass. If the absolute value of the negative mass is greater than the absolute value of the positive mass, there is a repulsive gravitational effect between the two. In this case, the acceleration of positive mass is greater. As time passes, the two masses become more and more distant. Thus, they can exist without pair annihilation.

In case |-m_ -| > m_ +

We need a mechanism to return something to its original vacuum state after something is born in the vacuum, and we need a mechanism to exist after something is born from the vacuum. The mechanism of different mass sizes during pair creation seems to play a very important role.

[Big bang mechanism or creation mechanism(tentative name) ]

This logic may be used as a theoretical basis(energy conservation law, mass difference(repulsive gravitational effect)) for the presence of two masses after pair creation without pair annihilation.

 

Edited by icarus2

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Once again you still have the problem of negative mass. There is zero evidence of true negative mass ever existing. Wishing it were so simply to make your theory work isn't sufficient.

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Posted (edited)

You realize that reaction can go forward or backward as long as conservation laws are obeyed.
photons >> particle + antiparticle
and
particle + antiparticle >> photons

In your example you will have an energy deficit when the particle/anti-particle pair come back together and annihilate.
Or are you saying the energy of the incident photons must be larger by the amount [Gm+m-]/[rc^2] to create the particles ?

You really don't explain yourself too well

Edited by MigL

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Particularly since it's already been explained that both particle and anti particle both have positive mass. Yet here we are again...

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, MigL said:

You realize that reaction can go forward or backward as long as conservation laws are obeyed.
photons >> particle + antiparticle
and
particle + antiparticle >> photons

In your example you will have an energy deficit when the particle/anti-particle pair come back together and annihilate.
Or are you saying the energy of the incident photons must be larger by the amount [Gm+m-]/[rc^2] to create the particles ?

You really don't explain yourself too well

I have said many times that I have never made such a claim. 

Please stop the matter.

On 3/7/2020 at 3:17 AM, icarus2 said:

1. The runaway motion problem is wrong.

a) The difference in mass when creating the pair of negative mass and positive mass.

Process of the pair creation of electron and positron, the effect of electromagnetic potential energy could be the same because the two particles had the same kind of energy(electron : +, positron : +). Therefore, the two particles could have the same mass. However, in the process of the pair creation of negative and positive mass, the effect of gravitational potential energy is different because the two particles have different types of energy(negative mass : - , positive mass : +).

This gravitational potential energy has a positive value and exists in a system containing two objects or two objects.

If you add or subtract potential energy in two cases(Pair creation of electron and positron, Pair creation of negative mass and positive mass), you can see that they are different.

609726458_9-1-Thedifferenceinmasswhencreatingthepairofnegativemassandpositivemass-4.jpg.7c86dc98ce607fede5aad88ae3133af2.jpg

In case the negative mass and the positive mass are pair created in the vacuum, according to the Energy Conservation Law, there must be a mass difference between the negative mass and the positive mass.

|-m_ -| > m_ +

 

=====

No. Both electron and positron have positive mass.

=====

1) Pair creation of two positive mass particles In the process of the pair creation of electron and positron,

~~~
2) Pair creation when one has positive mass and the other has negative mass

=====

I have never claimed that antimatter is a negative mass.

=====

 

Edited by icarus2

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Posted (edited)

Your still making zero sense. There is never number 2 in any observational evidence.

If number two doesn't describe matter/antimatter pairs then when can number ever apply ?

What is your mysterious pair creation describing pixie dust ?

You already agree all particles has positive mass. Every object in our universe is made of particles. So every object in nature has positive mass.

 

Edited by Mordred

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21 minutes ago, icarus2 said:

I have said many times that I have never made such a claim. 

Yet in the same post you write...

 

22 minutes ago, icarus2 said:

Pair creation when one has positive mass and the other has negative mass

So is it a language issue ????????

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20 minutes ago, icarus2 said:

2) Pair creation when one has positive mass and the other has negative mass

Last  time I asked what you meant by this you did not provide a complete answer, since you did not explicitly state what you think has negative mass if it is neither the electron nor the proton.

So I will ask again.

To what particle are you attributing negative mass?

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Once again you still have the problem of negative mass. There is zero evidence of true negative mass ever existing. Wishing it were so simply to make your theory work isn't sufficient.

Observations do not prove that the negative mass does not exist in the universe. You must have heard this problem in science philosophy many times~

And isn't my explanation in the text?

On 3/7/2020 at 3:17 AM, icarus2 said:

 

[ Resurrection Request for Negative Mass. ]

All new discoveries were called new discoveries because they were not found until then. Throughout the history of science, among the things that have not yet been discovered, new discoveries have had many examples. In other words, it does not guarantee that undiscovered findings of any physical object will be undiscovered in the future. The history of physics, and even the history of science.

And even if we find something, our existing knowledge either rejects this discovery or tries to interpret it through existing ideas.

=======

826605248_Adamriess-lecture-1.jpg.276eeb5e2145ae5bdb3e7b2307b357c2.jpg

Negative Mass?

Actually the first indication of the discovery!

1541083118_AdamRiess-nobellecture-3.jpg.8e95ec1fdcf65e4062499dde54d56ced.jpg

Days later… What does this mean?

There cannot be negative mass, but would Einstein’s Cosmological Constant explain this acceleration?

=======

In the process of discarding the negative mass that is the result of the field equation, it is assumed that the false claims listed above played a key role. Since the rejection logics for the negative mass are wrong, the negative mass model needs to be reviewed again.

This is not clear evidence, but there are likely observations, so further research is needed.

And, in 2018, a researcher named Farnes published the following paper at Astronomy and Astrophysics (A&A). He seems to claim that observations of several galaxies are evidence.

https://phys.org/news/2018-12-bizarre-dark-fluid-negative-mass.html

*A Unifying Theory of Dark Energy and Dark Matter: Negative Masses and Matter Creation within a Modified ΛCDM Framework (2018, J.S. Farnes)

https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.07962

(*In fact, In 2009 I wrote a paper describing both dark matter and dark energy using negative mass. The first post on the forum here also raised this claim.)

 

Edited by icarus2

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Did you miss the Toy model portion of the descripive. ? The author isn't stating negative mass exists.

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1 hour ago, icarus2 said:

have said many times that I have never made such a claim. 

!

Moderator Note

Except that is exactly what you have claimed repeatedly.

I would ask you to explain but there is obviously no point because (a) you are not able to and (b) the entire premise is nonsensical.

DO NOT open another thread on this subject.

 

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